Stop The Smoking Ban!

[qwerty]

you seem to have missed the part where smoking kills people - that's why your position is immoral and not sociably acceptable

if you smoke in public you are not a good person - you are a murderer

[Rights]

You seem to have missed the part where we all have the right to do whatever we want with our own bodies.
But you know what qwerty, your asinine comment, “if you smoke in public you are not a good person - you are a murderer” does not even deserve a response. You’re a child that doesn’t have a decent argument. I wont waste my time and thoughts on discussions with you.

So if anyone else would like to give an intelligent response to the question I posed earlier (why shouldn’t a business owner be able to decide for themselves how to run their own establishment), I would be glad to hear it.

[ya_right]

Maybe you should go find a tree to hug, and while you’re at it take the bus, and save a whale. Or better yet GET A LIFE!
Hug a tree, ride a bus, save a whale and get a life! Never, never would I engage in such folly. I'd rather hug a whale, get a tree, save a bus and take a life.
Good luck with your educational endeavors, sister.

[ya_right]

If this latest rant is to be believed I will certainly miss the comedic relief. Please, for your own sake and those around you, seek help. Try to weed out the demons that are causing you so much distress.Only then will you find happiness. Good luck.
I will begin the journey you've suggested for me, Master Seefoo, and though it may take me across continents and oceans and through the open plains of awareness, both far and wide.. I am now, and will always be, your little grasshopper.

Good luck with your business. I guarantee someone with your energy will find a way. There is always a way.

"The sun never sets...it's always rising somewhere, silent and beautiful"

[ya_right]

Thanks singinbill55, couldn't have said it better myself.
ya..right

One foot in front of the other, I'm sure you are not so far away. Good Luck, my man, everything works out in the end...so if it hasn't worked out..it isn't the end.

[ya_right]

ya right sounds quite logical to me.

Thanks Qwerty, you're a good person in a pinch. Keep up the fight. I may not be *here* but I'll always be *there* for you. As always, if ever you are in need, cast the signal to the sky and I will be there.

As you were.

[Rights]

ya..right

One foot in front of the other, I'm sure you are not so far away. Good Luck, my man, everything works out in the end...so if it hasn't worked out..it isn't the end.

Nice. I like the way you put that. Everything does work out in the end.

If we couldn’t have debates like this, life would be utterly boring.

[pernapi]

You seem to have missed the part where we all have the right to do whatever we want with our own bodies.
But you know what qwerty, your asinine comment, “if you smoke in public you are not a good person - you are a murderer” does not even deserve a response. You’re a child that doesn’t have a decent argument. I wont waste my time and thoughts on discussions with you.

So if anyone else would like to give an intelligent response to the question I posed earlier (why shouldn’t a business owner be able to decide for themselves how to run their own establishment), I would be glad to hear it.

I believe the rationale is less about the other patrons as the people who work in the establishment. I've heard that working in a smoky bar is equivalent to smoking two packs of cigs. The point being that it isn't just doing what you want to your own body. Although, I'm with you on doing what you want to your own body. Do what you want to yourself. The law isn't necessarily on your side though, for example it is against the law to use most illicit substances. Cigarettes have not been prohibited though. So, smoke away.

I remember being really pissed off when I was a smoker and CA banned smoking in bars, and CA has a lot nicer weather to stand outside and smoke. I did get sick of the expense and coughing that I endured while smoking. I finally had to be honest with myself that "because I like it" wasn't really a reason to keep smoking when so many cons piled up in the con column. I quit, and until the smoking ban is stopped, I am going to enjoy coming home from a bar without a headache and without smelling like an ashtray.

Good luch to you in your fight. Sorry I can't help out.

[qwerty]

Im advocating considerate ethical behavior as opposed to selfish anti social disgusting behavior, and ... youre calling ME childish? stay off the crack dude, its turning you into a monster.

people that use freedom as an excuse to be a-holes and mess up the country are spoiled brats.

[Fnarf999]

we all have the right to do whatever we want with our own bodies. Your rights end where my nose begins.

[Ballardguy]

So if anyone else would like to give an intelligent response to the question I posed earlier (why shouldn’t a business owner be able to decide for themselves how to run their own establishment), I would be glad to hear it.
Sure. Business owners do not have the ability to decide how to run their own business. They have the ability to decide how to run their business within the restraints of the law. Business owners cannot allow smoking anymore than they could allow prostitution, drug use or any other illegal activity (yea, yea...smoking is legal - but not inside business establishments).

Why shouldn't a business owner be able to decide for themselves? Because allowing patrons to smoke in their establishments is against the law. That is not a subjective issue, and it is not open to interpretation.

Any personal feelings you have on the results of 901 are not relevant to your question. It's the law; and business owners, like anyone else, are obliged to follow it. If you do not like the law, then do something about it. Bitching and moaning accomplishes nothing.

[Rights]

Im advocating considerate ethical behavior as opposed to selfish anti social disgusting behavior, and ... youre calling ME childish? stay off the crack dude, its turning you into a monster.

people that use freedom as an excuse to be a-holes and mess up the country are spoiled brats.

I’m sorry, but calling me a murderer because I smoke a cig outside is childish. Using that logic, anyone who drives a car, uses arousal cans, or a number of other things would be considered a murderer too. The poison that is pumped out of cars everyday is FAR more harmful to people walking down the roads/sidewalks than cigarette smoke. (Which, by the way, cars are driven OUTSIDE. Come on, say something, you know you want to :)
So qwerty, if you’ve ever driven a car, or sprayed your underarms with Secrete, I guess that makes you a murderer too huh?

[Rights]

Your rights end where my nose begins.

Honestly, I’ve already debated the “walking away, don’t go inside” argument. So really, I don’t have anything to say to this…except, I do sympathize with not enjoying the smell of people. I’ve been in many situations where I was forced to be around someone who had less than an acceptable smell surrounding them. Whether it was bad B.O, or horrible perfume, which can be stomach turning. It's been bad enough that I would have gladly given all the money in my wallet to get them to take a bath.
So yes Fnarf999, I do sympathize for your nose.

[Rights]

Sure. Business owners do not have the ability to decide how to run their own business. They have the ability to decide how to run their business within the restraints of the law. Business owners cannot allow smoking anymore than they could allow prostitution, drug use or any other illegal activity (yea, yea...smoking is legal - but not inside business establishments).

Why shouldn't a business owner be able to decide for themselves? Because allowing patrons to smoke in their establishments is against the law. That is not a subjective issue, and it is not open to interpretation.

Any personal feelings you have on the results of 901 are not relevant to your question. It's the law; and business owners, like anyone else, are obliged to follow it. If you do not like the law, then do something about it. Bitching and moaning accomplishes nothing.

Yes Ballardguy, I understand that it is the law. I was under the impression that his forum was about discussing our opinions of the law. (Why one disagrees, or agrees with it)

This has never been about interpreting the law; I think you must be confusing this slog with the “Do you own a gun” slog in which the interpretation of the 2nd amendment has come up more than once. If you want to have that kind of debate, check it out; I think you might enjoy it :)

As far as not liking the law, and needing to do something about it. Thanks Ballardguy, that’s great advice in which I apply to my life daily. I am advocate for Planned Parenthood’s pro-choice program, and have donated and volunteered my time. I educate myself daily on laws and interpretations of our constitution and the amendments, and, the thing I am the most proud of, is that I constantly share my opinions, and am open to others opinions as well, so that I may continually gain knowledge from others, and maybe share a little of my own as well.

I would like to close with one of my favorite quotes, in which I feel agrees with my above point beautifully. And I give you…. Voltaire

I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire

[Ballardguy]

Yes Ballardguy, I understand that it is the law. I was under the impression that his forum was about discussing our opinions of the law. (Why one disagrees, or agrees with it)

This has never been about interpreting the law; I think you must be confusing this slog with the “Do you own a gun” slog in which the interpretation of the 2nd amendment has come up more than once. If you want to have that kind of debate, check it out; I think you might enjoy it :)

As far as not liking the law, and needing to do something about it. Thanks Ballardguy, that’s great advice in which I apply to my life daily. I am advocate for Planned Parenthood’s pro-choice program, and have donated and volunteered my time. I educate myself daily on laws and interpretations of our constitution and the amendments, and, the thing I am the most proud of, is that I constantly share my opinions, and am open to others opinions as well, so that I may continually gain knowledge from others, and maybe share a little of my own as well.

I would like to close with one of my favorite quotes, in which I feel agrees with my above point beautifully. And I give you…. Voltaire

I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire



You asked a direct question..in fact challenged anyone to address it, and I gave you a direct answer.

So if anyone else would like to give an intelligent response to the question I posed earlier (why shouldn’t a business owner be able to decide for themselves how to run their own establishment), I would be glad to hear it.

Since you had nothing to refute my answer with, it appears you felt the need to go off on some bizarre tangent about being Mother Theresa and a Constitutional Scholar. Good for you. What a bunch of bullshit.

Voltaire also said "the secret of being boring is to say everything". Apparently, you took this quote to heart.

[qwerty]

BO is obnoxious but it doesnt kill people. smoking is obnoxious AND kills people.

I dont getting your arguement about cars. why would you use that fact as an excuse to add MORE poison to the air? put down the toxic fart spray and help fight the oil/auto industries. glad you can see theyre sociapathic poisoners too.

[Rights]

You asked a direct question..in fact challenged anyone to address it, and I gave you a direct answer.

So if anyone else would like to give an intelligent response to the question I posed earlier (why shouldn’t a business owner be able to decide for themselves how to run their own establishment), I would be glad to hear it.

Since you had nothing to refute my answer with, it appears you felt the need to go off on some bizarre tangent about being Mother Theresa and a Constitutional Scholar. Good for you. What a bunch of bullshit.

Voltaire also said "the secret of being boring is to say everything". Apparently, you took this quote to heart.

Sorry, didn’t realize I needed to break it down for you. I thought it was obvious enough. I realize that the law has passed; I was discussing the reasons why it shouldn’t have been passed.
Again, I know what I said. I thought that it was clear that I disagree with the law, and was looking for some reasons as to why people are for it. By stating “why shouldn’t a business owner be able to decide for themselves how to run their own establishment” I was clearly looking for a response as to why that right has been taken away from them, how is it that people can justify dictating what a business owner does in their own establishment (as long as it is within the law, meaning, before the smoking law was in effect)
I don’t see how you could have miss-interpreted that.

I never meant to clam my self as a Mother Teresa, or a Constitutional Scholar. I was actually complimenting your view of making a difference in the world, and attempting to show that I’m not the evil, murderer with no compassion, simply because I feel I deserve the right to smoke a cig inside a bar, as long as the owner allows it.

[Rights]

BO is obnoxious but it doesnt kill people. smoking is obnoxious AND kills people.

I dont getting your arguement about cars. why would you use that fact as an excuse to add MORE poison to the air? put down the toxic fart spray and help fight the oil/auto industries. glad you can see theyre sociapathic poisoners too.

I used the car toxins as an example to show that smokers are a minor threat in comparison.
As for the BO remark, which was not written to you, it was written to Fnarf999, showing sympathy for unpleasant smells.
Yes, to be a little sarcastic too :)

[Rights]

Voltaire also said "the secret of being boring is to say everything". Apparently, you took this quote to heart.

What was the need in being a smartass with my Voltaire quote?
Mine was meant to be a compliment; you were just being an asshole.

[Ballardguy]

By stating “why shouldn’t a business owner be able to decide for themselves how to run their own establishment” I was clearly looking for a response as to why that right has been taken away from them, how is it that people can justify dictating what a business owner does in their own establishment (as long as it is within the law, meaning, before the smoking law was in effect).

How you equate this:

So if anyone else would like to give an intelligent response to the question I posed earlier (why shouldn’t a business owner be able to decide for themselves how to run their own establishment), I would be glad to hear it.

with this...

I was clearly looking for a response as to why that right has been taken away from them, how is it that people can justify dictating what a business owner does in their own establishment (as long as it is within the law, meaning, before the smoking law was in effect).

is at the very least puzzling. I think it is a dodging attempt.

Ok. I'll write this slow for you.

It's called Common Good. If you need me to elaborate or explain Common Good to you, please let me know. Not that I really care to. And can you stop with the backhanded compliments and self-proclaimed victim role? Please.

Smokies, for whatever reason, seem to love Voltaire. You graciously gave me Voltaire, I graciously gave him back.

I deserve the right to smoke a cig inside a bar, as long as the owner allows it.
Smoking is not a right. As a constitutional scholar (and I say this with all appropriately sincere flattery), you should know this.



I've answered your questions, but you keep dodging mine. What are you doing about the smoking ban, except bitching and moaning about it?

[Rights]

How you equate this:

So if anyone else would like to give an intelligent response to the question I posed earlier (why shouldn’t a business owner be able to decide for themselves how to run their own establishment), I would be glad to hear it.

with this...

I was clearly looking for a response as to why that right has been taken away from them, how is it that people can justify dictating what a business owner does in their own establishment (as long as it is within the law, meaning, before the smoking law was in effect).

is at the very least puzzling. I think it is a dodging attempt.

Ok. I'll write this slow for you.

It's called Common Good. If you need me to elaborate or explain Common Good to you, please let me know. Not that I really care to. And can you stop with the backhanded compliments and self-proclaimed victim role? Please.

Smokies, for whatever reason, seem to love Voltaire. You graciously gave me Voltaire, I graciously gave him back.


Smoking is not a right. As a constitutional scholar (and I say this with all appropriately sincere flattery), you should know this.



I've answered your questions, but you keep dodging mine. What are you doing about the smoking ban, except bitching and moaning about it?

Backwards compliments? Man, you must really be a sad person. I guess people aren’t civil to you very often huh? I actually meant what I said sincerely. If you’re too insecure to except chivalry, than that’s your problem. Don’t proclaim that you know my intentions. I actually am a nice person and I do mean well.

As far as “Smokies, for whatever reason, seem to love Voltaire”, what an asinine comment to make. I know many non-smokers who love Voltaire. I myself am a huge Socrates fan. Oh, I’ve already used this quote, but I’ll gladly use it again. It’s by Wilde. Do all the “Smokies” you know love Wilde too? “Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.”

What am I doing about the smoking ban? Signing every petition I can get my hands on, studying the laws to see if I can find a loop hole, trying to help other businesses in other cities avoid the same law being enforced on them, and attempting to understand where people are coming from so that I can consider their views as well as my own.

Luckily I moved before the law was placed. The reason that I joined this forum was because I wanted to understand why people felt so strongly about this. I get that people don’t like smoke. I also know the effects of 2nd hand smoke which is why I avoid people when standing outside to smoke. I definitely get the stink factor and I understand people’s passion. The thing I don’t get is that people felt like they had a right to control an establishment that wasn’t their own. Common Good you say. What about that person whose dream business was altered because of others preferences. Couldn’t you all have just boycotted the smoky bars if you didn’t want to be around the smoke? Couldn’t’ you have just NOT GONE IN? This is what I don’t’ get. As far as the employees, they have the option to not work there. What about the common good of the other half that doesn’t agree with you?

[qwerty]

smoking (choosing to selectively poison the air to get high) in public is just wrong. bad idea. not friendly. not kind. does not play well with others. etc.

trying to frame it as business rights is dellusional. random. at best its a right to die issue. but since this form of suicide is legal (suckas) - please try to keep it to yourself.

[Chandira]

I don't smoke. Well, not much. I gave up a pack a day habit 12 years ago, and for the last few years, I smoke one cigarette, about once every 6 weeks or so, and I lament the lack of decent places to sit and smoke a nice ciggy..

Last time I was reduced to sitting by Ballard locks on a pile of goose-poop that passed for grass.. I'd like a nice cafe, I'll even smoke it outside, but I'd like to be able to choose.

And hey, if you don't like it, you can choose not to go to smoking cafes/bars, but us smokers apparently get no choice. Isn't that how it should work? Hmm...

What happened to civil liberties? We can carry guns but not smoke cigarettes. I don't follow the logic.

[Ballardguy]

Backwards compliments? Man, you must really be a sad person. I guess people aren’t civil to you very often huh? I actually meant what I said sincerely. If you’re too insecure to except chivalry, than that’s your problem. Don’t proclaim that you know my intentions. I actually am a nice person and I do mean well.

Can we stop with the canonization campaign? You answer as a smartass, and then come back with the "I'm a great guy" responses. Enough already.


As far as “Smokies, for whatever reason, seem to love Voltaire”, what an asinine comment to make. I know many non-smokers who love Voltaire. I myself am a huge Socrates fan. Oh, I’ve already used this quote, but I’ll gladly use it again. It’s by Wilde. Do all the “Smokies” you know love Wilde too? “Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.”

What is it with your compulsion for quotes? Not all, but many smokies just seem to love identifying themselves as philosophers. Must be the magic cigarettes. Such bullshit.

Here's one for you: "Anyone up for a round of hemlock? I'm buying" Socrates, 399 BC


What am I doing about the smoking ban? Signing every petition I can get my hands on, studying the laws to see if I can find a loop hole, trying to help other businesses in other cities avoid the same law being enforced on them, and attempting to understand where people are coming from so that I can consider their views as well as my own.

Sniff...sniff.....anyone else getting a wiff of this? I smell bullshit. Regardless, good for you! You are now my Socrates of Tobacco. Better get a move on Socky! More and more States and Countries are passing similar bans.

Luckily I moved before the law was placed. The reason that I joined this forum was because I wanted to understand why people felt so strongly about this. I get that people don’t like smoke. I also know the effects of 2nd hand smoke which is why I avoid people when standing outside to smoke. I definitely get the stink factor and I understand people’s passion..

Wait a minute...hold on. Are you saying the some people are against the ban? Well now, that's a new revelation. Thanks for contributing. Anything else you can enlighten everyone on that hasn't been beaten to death already?

The thing I don’t get is that people felt like they had a right to control an establishment that wasn’t their own. Common Good you say. What about that person whose dream business was altered because of others preferences. Couldn’t you all have just boycotted the smoky bars if you didn’t want to be around the smoke? Couldn’t’ you have just NOT GONE IN? This is what I don’t’ get.

The "Not Go In" stance is too easy to refute (see the previous 1100 posts for more details).

As far as the employees, they have the option to not work there. What about the common good of the other half that doesn’t agree with you?

Ah. The old "employee option" card. Let's see..has that been played before? Yep. How about this: a "smoker option" card. Don't like the ban? You have the option to move.

Common good of the other half? What other half? See results. It wasn't even close. Every county in this state passed it overwhelming. http://vote.wa.gov/election/2005/general/measures.aspx?a=901

[BridgeTroll]

What happened to civil liberties? We can carry guns but not smoke cigarettes. I don't follow the logic.

Simple. Carrying a gun does not equate to smoking a cigarette. Firing a gun does.

[Fnarf999]

What happened to civil liberties? We can carry guns but not smoke cigarettes. I don't follow the logic.
Your civil liberties are just fine. You can smoke all you want. You just can't do it in public places where your smoke impacts other people. Get over it.

[Fnarf999]

The thing I don’t get is that people felt like they had a right to control an establishment that wasn’t their own Yeah, and while you're at it, how come I can't bar Negroes, Mexicans, and Jews from my establishment? Huh? After all, citizens have no obligations to the public.

[BridgeTroll]

Yeah, and while you're at it, how come I can't bar Negroes, Mexicans, and Jews from my establishment? Huh? After all, citizens have no obligations to the public.

Maybe because it is against the law. Hmmm...what else is against the law? I know! Smoking in business establishments.

[Rights]

Thank the public; I’m not alone in the forum anymore.

Ballardguy, out of respect for the stranger forum and all it’s viewers I wont take up pages describing in detail what a complete ass you are.
I will ask you to get off your high fucking horse and d-crown yourself. You’re the kind of guy that makes life miserable. “Here's one for you: "Anyone up for a round of hemlock? I'm buying" Socrates, 399 BC” What a fucked up piece of work you are. Man, the ladies must be lining up around the corner to give you a good kick in the balls. Your sarcasm isn’t witty, it’s annoying and only proves you have nothing to say worth hearing.
Here’s another quote from me to you. “FUCK OFF”

Finally... “And hey, if you don't like it, you can choose not to go to smoking cafes/bars, but us smokers apparently get no choice. Isn't that how it should work? Hmm...” Thank you Chandira. Your voice is very refreshing.

I found this on a New York web site in which is appalled and still fighting the ban that was placed on them:

When the health-Nazis came for the smokers,
I was not a smoker,
therefore, I was not concerned.

And when the health-Nazis attacked the obese,
I was not obese,
therefore, I was not concerned.

And when the health-Nazis attacked the drinkers and the alcohol industry,
I was not a drinker,
therefore I was not concerned.

Then, the health-Nazis attacked me and the freedom loving Americans who remained,
and there was nobody left to be concerned.

Here’s another quote for all you quote lovers out there:

Robert A. Levy, Cato's senior fellow in constitutional studies and an expert on tobacco litigation, argues that smoking bans represent meddling, snooping, busybody government at its worst. He says bans are dismissive of the rights of an unpopular minority -- namely smokers -- without any basis in the Constitution, science or logic.
"Ordinarily, we rely on common courtesy and mutual respect when individuals relate to one another," Levy says. "But nosy, intrusive government has polarized the dispute between smokers and nonsmokers. As a result, venom has replaced respect and obstinate behavior has replaced common courtesy. It is government, not secondhand smoke, that has poisoned the atmosphere."

I found this one FOX News.com:
The odd thing about all of this is that there are plenty of options for nonsmokers who don’t want to be bothered with secondhand smoke. The market is serving them just fine. Smoke Free D.C. in fact runs a list of smoke-free restaurants on its Web site.
Make no mistake, the aim of the well-funded organizations pushing smoking bans across the country has nothing to do with protecting nonsmokers from secondhand smoke. As columnist Steven Chapman points out, the idea that this is about protecting restaurant workers from risk is a canard. The added health risks of secondhand smoke are negligible at best, and they’re certainly no worse than the risks incurred by cab drivers, fishermen and those in similarly dangerous occupations.

“Anti-smoking organizations insist that bans are somehow good for people in hospitality businesses. This chart shows otherwise.” (Here is a link to the chart. It also has a link to un up-to-date chart which includes Seattle)
http://www.davehitt.com/facts/badforbiz.html

[BridgeTroll]

Thank the public; I’m not alone in the forum anymore.

Ballardguy, out of respect for the stranger forum and all it’s viewers I wont take up pages describing in detail what a complete ass you are.
I will ask you to get off your high fucking horse and d-crown yourself. You’re the kind of guy that makes life miserable. What a fucked up piece of work you are. Man, the ladies must be lining up around the corner to give you a good kick in the balls. Your sarcasm isn’t witty, it’s annoying and only proves you have nothing to say worth hearing.
Here’s another quote from me to you. “FUCK OFF”

And...the true colors come out. Not a advocate for business rights, not a crusader for free choice, not a "friendly, kind fellow" who is puzzled why his comments not seen as warm and friendly....

Just another disgruntled smoker who lost his playground and is throwing a tantrum. What an jerk.

[qwerty]

That was hysterical.

You're like a raving lunatic calling everyone nazis as he's being hauled off in a straight jacket.

You forgot to quote the Weekly World News

[Ballardguy]

Thank the public; I’m not alone in the forum anymore.

Ballardguy, out of respect for the stranger forum and all it’s viewers I wont take up pages describing in detail what a complete ass you are.
I will ask you to get off your high fucking horse and d-crown yourself. You’re the kind of guy that makes life miserable. What a fucked up piece of work you are. Man, the ladies must be lining up around the corner to give you a good kick in the balls. Your sarcasm isn’t witty, it’s annoying and only proves you have nothing to say worth hearing.
Here’s another quote from me to you. “FUCK OFF”

Man, you must really be a sad person. I guess people aren’t civil to you very often huh? I actually meant what I said sincerely. If you’re too insecure to except chivalry, than that’s your problem. Don’t proclaim that you know my intentions. I actually am a nice person and I do mean well.


What was the need in being a smartass with my Socrates quote? Mine was meant to be a compliment; you were just being an asshole.


I was actually complimenting your view of making a difference in the world, and attempting to show that I’m not the evil, murderer with no compassion, simply because I feel I deserve the right to be able to sit inside a bar and not be exposed to nicotine smoke.


I would like to close with one of my favorite quotes, in which I feel agrees with my above point beautifully. And I give you…. Homer

A big mountain of sugar is too much for one man. I can see now why God portions it out in those little packets.

[Rights]

Yes, I will gladly admit that I went off on Ballardguy. What choice did I have? Every time I tried to remain polite, even give compliments, I was accused of not being sincere, and that I’m trying to give the impression of being “the nice guy”
I was simply trying to be civil, and it was made quit clear that I could not be that.
Man, you can’t win with you people. You try to be nice, you’re called fake, you try to remain civil anyway, your told to stop being a smart ass, you finally give up and stoop to their level, and then your categorized as a “disgruntled smoker”.
WTF!!!
Whatever man. I have given facts. I’ve shown that I do more than bitch. I’ve even tried to point out the good points of what others had to say.
What the hell do you all want, for me to roll over and say YOUR RIGHT? Cause that’s never going to happen.
By the by qwerty, at least I have some facts to back my statements. I haven’t seen anything worth a shit coming from your end.

[Ballardguy]

By the by qwerty, at least I have some facts to back my statements.

Robert Levy and FOX News? Are you kidding me??

LMAO.

What the hell do you all want, for me to roll over and say YOUR RIGHT? Cause that’s never going to happen.

Silly Rights, this is not a "right" or "wrong" issue. This is reality vs. fantasy.

Reality: 2nd hand smoke is toxic.
BIG REALITY: The mass majority of people in this country are tired of it. They no longer want to share the experience of your smoking habits. Telling them "well, don't go to smoking places" is bullshit.

Fantasy: Bullshit studies will result in everyone thinking..."Wow. The poor persecuted smokers are right. What was everyone thinking? Let's roll back the ban now."


Blog Title is "Stop the Smoking Ban". SingingBill, I give credit to. He's actively doing something. You? Nothing except bitching and moaning...that is...when you are not trying to convince everyone what a great guy you are.

[Rights]

Blog Title is "Stop the Smoking Ban". SingingBill, I give credit to. He's actively doing something. You? Nothing except bitching and moaning...that is...when you are not trying to convince everyone what a great guy you are.

As in?
Please elaborate as to what SingingBil is actively doing?
I am definitely open to trying new routes. Apparently everything I have tried on this forum has done nothing.

[qwerty]

facts? i dont think the facts are in dispute except in the chemical corroded skulls of nic addicts. sorry if i cant take your "facts" seriously for even a pico second. you might as well spout gibberish. seriously. you cant even tell the differance can you?

cigarette smoke kills people. theres a fact you should consider.

killing your neighbors so you can get high is EVIL - thats just my opinion. maybe you would replace the word EVIL with "my right"

[Ballardguy]

As in?
Please elaborate as to what SingingBil is actively doing?
I am definitely open to trying new routes. Apparently everything I have tried on this forum has done nothing.

No need to elaborate. Look it up. Post #1175. My response to same was #1177.

[Chandira]

Simple. Carrying a gun does not equate to smoking a cigarette. Firing a gun does.

Well, that just sucks, imho.. bah. Next we won't be able to carry cigarettes either. ;-)

[Rights]

Well, I guess I have unquestionably been put in my place.
I thought I was doing something by voting, signing petitions, looking for loop holes, and discussing it on forums, but I see that in comparison to the effort that singinbill55 put forth, mine is obsolete. It is comforting to know that someone out there who agrees with my point of view (right of business owners) is doing such an excellent job. Thanks for pointing that out to me.

I never intended to paint myself as anything other than a concerned citizen. I would guess that at least 90% of this forum has a mutual agreement that my words and tactics are not appreciated.

I am extremely passionate on any topic in which I feel like civil liberties are in jeopardy. Yes, yes, I know that most here don’t see it as a civil liberty issue, but I do, and I know that there are others out there that agree with me, they just happen to not frequent this forum.

But I digress; I have been put in my place when it comes to actively fighting the law.

[qwerty]

in life its important to pick what battles to fight.

you can fight for starving oppressed people around the world, or you can join NAMBLA. i gues it depends on your values.

[Rights]

in life its important to pick what battles to fight.

you can fight for starving oppressed people around the world, or you can join NAMBLA. i gues it depends on your values.

And apparently your values consist of nothing more than adding small, insignificant comments that are meant only to make yourself feel good and are absolutely not worth anything beyond the time you spend typing that you might have otherwise spent annoying some poor bystander whom is not only forced to hear your worthless words, but must witness them exiting your mouth.

Ballardguy may have been an asshole, but at least he had valid points.

You’ve done nothing but proven your lack of intelligence and small vocabulary.

[maggie2]

Last night, tired after work, I decided to go to walk to a bar on my street. I thought I could really go for a Absolut/ Cran.
As I walked toward the place, I immediately noticed a gaggle of smokers just outside the front door. I inhaled two direct hits of thick smoke as I entered the place.
It didn't take long to realize, just as I was getting my drink, that the place smelled like cigarette smoke. The place was busy, so the doors were constantly opening in and out.
To all the people who disobey the 25-foot rule: will you please move away from the front door - just as a courtesy to me, a non-smoker.
I am a paying customer visiting my local bar. The people of this city

aw, fuck the polite approach - fuck you all. Stop ass-fucking me when I want to enjoy a night out in my own fucking neighborhood!

FUCK YOU.

[qwerty]

laws need to be enforced

[Ballardguy]

Last night, tired after work, I decided to go to walk to a bar on my street. I thought I could really go for a Absolut/ Cran.
As I walked toward the place, I immediately noticed a gaggle of smokers just outside the front door. I inhaled two direct hits of thick smoke as I entered the place.
It didn't take long to realize, just as I was getting my drink, that the place smelled like cigarette smoke. The place was busy, so the doors were constantly opening in and out.
To all the people who disobey the 25-foot rule: will you please move away from the front door - just as a courtesy to me, a non-smoker.
I am a paying customer visiting my local bar. The people of this city

aw, fuck the polite approach - fuck you all. Stop ass-fucking me when I want to enjoy a night out in my own fucking neighborhood!

FUCK YOU.

Smokies Maggie. It's gaggle of smokies. :)

[Ballardguy]

And apparently your values consist of nothing more than adding small, insignificant comments that are meant only to make yourself feel good and are absolutely not worth anything beyond the time you spend typing that you might have otherwise spent annoying some poor bystander whom is not only forced to hear your worthless words, but must witness them exiting your mouth.

Wow. Let's start a run-on sentence blog. :).

[maggie2]

Smokies Maggie. It's gaggle of smokies. :)

"Smokies" is too cute - it's like calling shit "poo-poo".

[breather]

Last night, tired after work, I decided to go to walk to a bar on my street. I thought I could really go for a Absolut/ Cran.
As I walked toward the place, I immediately noticed a gaggle of smokers just outside the front door. I inhaled two direct hits of thick smoke as I entered the place.
It didn't take long to realize, just as I was getting my drink, that the place smelled like cigarette smoke. The place was busy, so the doors were constantly opening in and out.
To all the people who disobey the 25-foot rule: will you please move away from the front door - just as a courtesy to me, a non-smoker.
I am a paying customer visiting my local bar. The people of this city

aw, fuck the polite approach - fuck you all. Stop ass-fucking me when I want to enjoy a night out in my own fucking neighborhood!

FUCK YOU.

Maggie,

What we need here is a driven patience. We won the big vote. We've whipped the would be rebels (Buckaroo, 5 Spots, etc) into line and are working on the real rebels (the Rimrock and Backdoor are being fined and will likely end up in court, like the idiot restaurant owner in Bellingham who knuckled under when a whatcom Co. judge threatened him with jail time).

Now that the weather is getting nice it's time to startt lighting up the complaint lines regarding places where you have to run a gauntlet, can't enjoy the patio or can't breathe freely in when the door(s) are open.

Sully's in Greenwood needs to put the smokies out in the middle of the street, they don't belong on the patio. The George and Dragon is going to get a smokefree deck whether they like it or not. And that means that the smokies in the parking lot will need to stay 25 ft from the deck.

COMPLAIN. COMPLAIN. AND THEN COMPLAIN REALLY LOUDLY. Don't limit yourself to complaint lines and websites. Bug Ron Sims and Greg Nickels, as the Health Dep't. is a joint city/county thing. Look up Roger Valdez, the so-called toabacco czar, at http://www.metrokc.gov , make him and his tired of hearing from you. Keep pushing them back, it's working.

[Gres05]

Please please please DON'T email the entire world. Email smoking.concern@metrokc.gov with complaints. If you email Sims or Nickels or anyone else it will all end up at smoking.concern@metrokc.gov anyway only it will take much more paperwork and take much more time to deal with...time that could be used actually going out and enforcing the law.

Thank you all!

[breather]

Please please please DON'T email the entire world. Email smoking.concern@metrokc.gov with complaints. If you email Sims or Nickels or anyone else it will all end up at smoking.concern@metrokc.gov anyway only it will take much more paperwork and take much more time to deal with...time that could be used actually going out and enforcing the law.

Thank you all!

This is BS, probably from a smokie. If elected officials are getting an earful about enforcement than the employees hired by them will be prodded to move faster.
More of this is needed, witness the fact that the Rimrock and Backdoor are still smoking, along with the Rose Garden up the street. It's been what, 4 months now? This bureaucratic pace can be picked up with one phone call from the mayor or exec.
Another good tactic is to search a local paper for reporters who have written on the ban and then very visibly cc them on the email, that way the guys like Roger Valdez see that the mayor is now watching and the mayor sees that the press is now aware of the situation.
The assertion above that an email to Nickels or Sims just gets rerouted is as bogus as "smokie science" on ETS and the claim that it will delay rather than speed up enforcement smells like your arguments that bans hurt the economy rather than improve it. About what we've come to expect from you people.

[Gres05]

This is so funny. I am not a smoker at all. I appreciate everything you are doing to help with the enforcement of the smoking ban. Please trust me that calling the complaint line or sending an email to smoking.concern@metrokc.gov is the best way to get the proper people informed of the violation.

I am not saying that people can't or shouldn't call their elected officials to complain if they so chose, I am merely letting you know that a complaint will be addressed quicker if it comes through the complaint line. Here is why:

Email comes in at smoking.concern@metrokc.gov. It gets put in a database, a notice of complaint goes out if neccesary (normally same day), a call is made to the establishment if deemed appropriate, and if needed the establishment is put on a list for a site visit. This typically happens within a week.

Sims gets an email. Something happens for awhile and then it makes it way down to the appropriate staff person (this can take awhile). A response to the individual is drafted. The draft goes back up through chain of command (is edits are needed it gets sent back down where they are made and then sent back up). After response is approved: the establishment receives either a notice of complaint, a phone call, a site visit, or any combination of the above depending on the circumstance.

Same result only it takes longer because: it takes awhile to get to the appropriate person and the person then has to draft a response and work to get it approved. Not only does it take longer, but sometimes, the person creating the response is the one doing enforcement so it can actually slow down the enforcement process.

There are good people working to enforce this law and they really care about it. In many cases, employees have voluntarily started working late night shifts to increase the effectiveness of the enforcement efforts. I truly hope you don't have an image of people just sitting around being lazy and not caring about this issue...nothing could be further from the truth.



This is BS, probably from a smokie. If elected officials are getting an earful about enforcement than the employees hired by them will be prodded to move faster.
More of this is needed, witness the fact that the Rimrock and Backdoor are still smoking, along with the Rose Garden up the street. It's been what, 4 months now? This bureaucratic pace can be picked up with one phone call from the mayor or exec.
Another good tactic is to search a local paper for reporters who have written on the ban and then very visibly cc them on the email, that way the guys like Roger Valdez see that the mayor is now watching and the mayor sees that the press is now aware of the situation.
The assertion above that an email to Nickels or Sims just gets rerouted is as bogus as "smokie science" on ETS and the claim that it will delay rather than speed up enforcement smells like your arguments that bans hurt the economy rather than improve it. About what we've come to expect from you people.

[Jimmy Flame]

This shit is so old now.

[denny8448]

This shit is so old now.

Man, you hit the nail on the head, Jimmy. I haven't been back here in a couple of weeks and what I find is the same stupidity by the anti-smoking zealots.

Their argument is that SHS kills and anyone who believes otherwise is Peter Pan. I pointed toward the largest, most scientifically accurate studies in the world, studies without tobacco money, which prove definitively that SHS does NOT adversely effect the health of nonsmokers and yet they're still claiming it KILLS.

They asked for proof that even ONE business was harmed by bans and I provided THOUSANDS of them.

You can't talk to people who are so brainwashed they won't face reality.

This is really a waste of time.

[qwerty]

who are you going to believe me or your lying lungs?

my bar is having to close becasue they wont allow me to sell crack and unregistered handguns to the kids anymore. or my special toothache cures.

nobody listens to my crazy rants. so FU all.

im now going to read scientific studies that prove that im peter pan. i dont have time for you non believers

[Jimmy Flame]

who are you going to believe me or your lying lungs?

my bar is having to close becasue they wont allow me to sell crack and unregistered handguns to the kids anymore. or my special toothache cures.

nobody listens to my crazy rants. so FU all.

im now going to read scientific studies that prove that im peter pan. i dont have time for you non believers

We're not debating crack or handguns. To put a friggin' cigarette in the same category is insulting and pea brained.

[Ballardguy]

Their argument is that SHS kills and anyone who believes otherwise is Peter Pan. I pointed toward the largest, most scientifically accurate studies in the world, studies without tobacco money, which prove definitively that SHS does NOT adversely effect the health of nonsmokers and yet they're still claiming it KILLS.

LMAO. I got a bridge for sale Pete...Oops! I mean Denny. Interested?

You can even smoke on it.

[qwerty]

the tobacco industries internal documents say cigs are a nicotine drug delivery device. some smokers claim cigs is more addictive than crack. Ive never been a crack head or any sort of drug addict. to me youre a fkkin crack head. sorry but thats how i see you. ya freakin tweaker.

guns kill people - but you gotta aim it. it takes more balls to aim a gun at strangers cuz theres a consequence. cig smoke kills people too, but you can poison a whole sidewalk full of strangers and sneak away like some sort of mini american taliban psycho killer. please smoke 1000 cartons of cigs a day in the privacy of your own home.

[Rights]

This shit is so old now.

Man, you hit the nail on the head, Jimmy. I haven't been back here in a couple of weeks and what I find is the same stupidity by the anti-smoking zealots.

Their argument is that SHS kills and anyone who believes otherwise is Peter Pan. I pointed toward the largest, most scientifically accurate studies in the world, studies without tobacco money, which prove definitively that SHS does NOT adversely effect the health of nonsmokers and yet they're still claiming it KILLS.

They asked for proof that even ONE business was harmed by bans and I provided THOUSANDS of them.

You can't talk to people who are so brainwashed they won't face reality.

This is really a waste of time.

Well, it’s really not worth it.

I too have placed statistics on the this slog in concern to businesses shutting down due to the law passed. It does no good. They don’t listen. It’s always been “my way or the highway” with this forum.

The irony is that people against the smoking ban have remained mature and only tried to point out facts and statistics, along with our opinions. (Unless ruthlessly provoked) Where as the ones for the smoking ban have constantly thrown out childish banter comparing our ideas to that of Peter Pan.

The thing that I find the most humorous, and is beyond the spectrum of debate, is the comparison of crack to cigs. As obvious as this is, it apparently needs to be pointed out that crack is ILLEGAL and cigs are LEGAL. Not only are cigs legal, but heavily taxed. Therefore it is fair that we have an environment to enjoy our smokes, as it is fair for the non-smokers to have a place to enjoy a non-smoking environment.

As often as we have tried to point out the obvious, “Go to a smoke free establishment, and leave the smoking ones to us.” It’s only retorted with snide comments or how smoking stinks.
I’m not sure I’ve mentioned this earlier on the forum, but I have a close friend with a serious lung disease. She can’t be around cig smoke. When I was still living in Seattle, we used to frequent bars like Norms (always smoke free). She loved it, and we liked it too. Then on beautiful days we would go to George and the Dragon and sit outside on the porch. She often pointed out that being outside was perfect cause she wasn’t bothered by the cig smoke and we could still enjoy our vices. She HATES that I smoke. She worries about me constantly, understanding 1st hand what a lung condition is like. She has never smoked a cig and constantly wishes me to quit, as does a lot of my friends and family.
The point of all this is that, as much as she hates the smell, the damage, everything else that is tied with smoking, she still respects my rights as a smoker and the rights of business owners to decide whether to allow smoking or not. (As long as I take her into consideration and not ask her to accompany me to a smoking establishment, which of course I never would).

People in this forum have continually pointed out that “it’s the law” which of course we understand. This forum was a place where we could discuss our disagreements with the law, but it has sadly turned into (or maybe it always was) simply a place for the non-smokers to berate all the smokers, telling them that they are nothing more than sick selfish murderous people. It’s really sad that in this society we can’t discuss our differences of opinions in a calm and rational manner.

But I digress.

To all those out there who, like me, have frustratingly attempted to “discuss” our points on this forum in regards to a disagreement with the new smoking ban, I have 4 words.
It’s not worth it.

[qwerty]

THOU SHALT NOT KILL

theres a law for ya

crackie

some businesses need some help onto the moral path. if you're a sociapath theres a lot of ways to make $. making $ by any means is not your right.

just becasue the cuastic chemicals in your brain sac have blinded you to the ethics of not POISONING people with your toxic deadly smoke, doesnt mean you cant be a good citizen. you werent born a homocidal maniac. try a nic patch and the life you save might be your own.

[singinbill55]

I get the feeling Qwerty has the ten commandments posted in the front yard. By chance are you from Tennessee, South Carolina or anywhere in that vicinity? By the way I would like to thank you for showing everyone in this forum just how blinders work. The only thing is you are supposed to wear them only on the sides of your head and not also in front of your nose.

[Ballardguy]

Well, it’s really not worth it.

I too have placed statistics on the this slog in concern to businesses shutting down due to the law passed. It does no good. They don’t listen.

Oh please. Have some establishments suffered or gone under? Sure. Who's denying that? Is the the end of the world scenario that some like to paint it to be? Of course not.

On this point, who's or what is to blame? My position is that there are two factors. 1). If a business depended so much on smoking, then maybe it should shut down. If a business cannot adapt to changes, then it only has itself to blame. 2). Hey smokies, stop blaming the ban. Blame yourselves first. The same people crying out about business loss are the ones who supposedly left the business high and dry in the first place. You abandoned your pub because of the ban? Shallow. Shame on you.

And I did read the stats provided by...what's his name...the guy who is supposedly starting up a smoker right group in Washington..his "stats" showed a total of 14 bars in WA (2 were listed twice) who claim to have lost business. One listed is a favorite of mine - The Waterfront in Bellingham - and it was a smoke dive (not to mention occassional DC sniper favorite). Was up there last weekend. Was crowded, and the fish and chips tasted much better. Bartender told me that there was little to no drop off in business.

The irony is that people against the smoking ban have remained mature and only tried to point out facts and statistics, along with our opinions. (Unless ruthlessly provoked) Where as the ones for the smoking ban have constantly thrown out childish banter comparing our ideas to that of Peter Pan.

Get real. There's enough blame on both sides. From my perspective, smokies are the childish ones. There has been an incredible amount of smokie tantrums on this blog. And when bizarre concepts, such as "safe" second hand smoke is spouted off as factual, you will be called Peter Pan.

Nice catch on the "ruthlessly provoked". You know why.


The thing that I find the most humorous, and is beyond the spectrum of debate, is the comparison of crack to cigs. As obvious as this is, it apparently needs to be pointed out that crack is ILLEGAL and cigs are LEGAL. Not only are cigs legal, but heavily taxed. Therefore it is fair that we have an environment to enjoy our smokes, as it is fair for the non-smokers to have a place to enjoy a non-smoking environment.

Crack to cigs has never been one of the main discussion points and I also do not see the relevance. Qwerty may have his reasons for comparison, but I haven't seen it raised by anyone else.

Legal/Illegal is also not relevant. The relevance is where you can legally smoke cigarettes. Smokies do have their environments to smoke. They just lost one of their favorites - bars.

As far as "fair"....well, a "fair" is a place where you show pigs.


I’m not sure I’ve mentioned this earlier on the forum, but I have a close friend with a serious lung disease.... The point of all this is that, as much as she hates the smell, the damage, everything else that is tied with smoking, she still respects my rights as a smoker and the rights of business owners to decide whether to allow smoking or not. (As long as I take her into consideration and not ask her to accompany me to a smoking establishment, which of course I never would).

With all due respect to your friend, her opinion is not the same as the majority of voters. The majority see cigarette smoking for what it is; a toxin not only harmful to smokies, but to anyone else who is in vicinity to breathe in the smoke. And can we stop pulling out bullshit studies saying the smoke is not harmful? Even Philip Morris, while not supporting bans, acknowledges that second hand smoke is harmful.

And again...smoking is not a "right".


I have 4 words.
It’s not worth it.

(Technically 5 words). Agree. The ban is here, and it is here to stay. And as much as I advocate that this blog should be used by smokies to describe their smoking heroics and sob tales while standing 25 feet away, they keep trying to come back to making it about saying why 75% of the voting public was wrong to initiate the ban.

[qwerty]

smoking kills way more people than crack so youre right that the comparison is unfair. to crack.

im sorry im blind to "studies" that say cigarette smoke is good for your health. im also blind to studies that say the moon is made out of green cheese.

smokers are in denial that smoking kills. im sure they do everything they can to keep it out of their mind as they suck down their death 10-20 times a day (or whatev). the rest of the world doesnt have the chemical addiction that causes this omission of reality. were not living in your fantasy land. everytime we smell that DEATH smell. we know some mthrfkr is poisoning the air to get high.

[singinbill55]

It's not so much that you are blind Qwerty but more so that you are deaf and dumb. What is it that makes the studies that show SHS is harmful are so right and the studies that show that SHS is not harmful are so wrong? There is no middle ground witht you. That , in itself, shows one of three things. Either you truly don't have a clue and you're talking to hear your head rattle, you are a fanatic or you just don't like the smell. I look forward to your every post because each one just reinforces the fact that you are a raving lunatic. Raving lunatics are funny. Thanks for being such an easy target. Carry on.

[qwerty]

Im a lunatic because I believe Cigarette smoking kills people. thats why they have those smell warning stickers on every cig packet sold. because the tobacco industry finally admitted that smoking smells bad

And Im deaf and dumb because I dont read your kooky psuedo science. I also dont read crazy studies that prove the earth is flat. that the mayans were ufo's etc.

im going to go huff cleaning products now and drink a cup of gasoline. youre all nazis

[singinbill55]

Thanks for proving my point.

[qwerty]

smoking in public is worse than spreading herpes to strangers. cus most herps doesnt kill people. smokers are killers

[Jimmy Flame]

Im a lunatic because I believe Cigarette smoking kills people. thats why they have those smell warning stickers on every cig packet sold. because the tobacco industry finally admitted that smoking smells bad

And Im deaf and dumb because I dont read your kooky psuedo science. I also dont read crazy studies that prove the earth is flat. that the mayans were ufo's etc.

im going to go huff cleaning products now and drink a cup of gasoline. youre all nazis

We're all Nazis? Because I enjoy smoking, and you don't that makes me a Nazi? No, that means I enjoy something that you don't agree with. I like to enjoy cigarettes with all kinds of races and backgrounds. I don't think cigs smell bad at all. At least no worse than anyones body odor. I'm 29 years old, and do not wish to have some busy-body up in my buisness. I doubt if I've ever been in the same room as you, so what I'm doing has no effect on you. So mind your own buisness, and go drink your gasoline. I hope you enjoy!

[Jimmy Flame]

smoking in public is worse than spreading herpes to strangers. cus most herps doesnt kill people. smokers are killers

No, killers are killers.

[BridgeTroll]

We're all Nazis? Because I enjoy smoking, and you don't that makes me a Nazi? No, that means I enjoy something that you don't agree with. I like to enjoy cigarettes with all kinds of races and backgrounds. I don't think cigs smell bad at all. At least no worse than anyones body odor. I'm 29 years old, and do not wish to have some busy-body up in my buisness. I doubt if I've ever been in the same room as you, so what I'm doing has no effect on you. So mind your own buisness, and go drink your gasoline. I hope you enjoy!

The nazi claim is ridiculous, not to mention insulting. All rhetoric aside, you did hit on a key point. If in the same room with a smoker, it becomes my business by default, not by choice. Before we get on the "smoker establishment" bandwagon again, the fact is that the mass majority of people do not smoke, and do not wish to be limited in their choice of where they can and cannot go for the silly reason of avoiding smoke.

We can go on and on about whether or not it is fair....right...etc...(and many have), but the simple fact on this matter is: majority rules. And it will continue to hold, because of another simple fact - smoking is not a right.

[singinbill55]

I found this on the CDC's website:
• The Federal Cigarette Labeling and Advertising Act of 1965 (Public Law 89-92) required that the warning "Caution: Cigarette Smoking May Be Hazardous to Your Health" be placed in small print on one of the side panels of each cigarette package. The act prohibited additional labeling requirements at the federal, state, or local levels.2
• In June 1967 the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) issued its first report to Congress recommending that the warning label be changed to "Warning: Cigarette Smoking Is Dangerous to Health and May Cause Death from Cancer and Other Diseases." 2
• In 1969 Congress passed the Public Health Cigarette Smoking Act (Public Law 91-222), which prohibited cigarette advertising on television and radio and required that each cigarette package contain the label "Warning: The Surgeon General Has Determined That Cigarette Smoking Is Dangerous to Your Health." 2
• In 1981 the FTC issued a report to Congress that concluded health warning labels had little effect on public knowledge and attitudes about smoking. As a result of this report, Congress enacted the Comprehensive Smoking Education Act of 1984 (Public Law 98-474), which required four specific health warnings on all cigarette packages and advertisements:
• SURGEON GENERAL’S WARNING: Smoking Causes Lung Cancer, Heart Disease, Emphysema, and May Complicate Pregnancy.
• SURGEON GENERAL’S WARNING: Quitting Smoking Now Greatly Reduces Serious Risks to Your Health.
• SURGEON GENERAL’S WARNING: Smoking by Pregnant Women May Result in Fetal Injury, Premature Birth, and Low Birth Weight.
• SURGEON GENERAL’S WARNING: Cigarette Smoke Contains Carbon Monoxide.2
Chances are smoking may be harmful to...SMOKERS. No where in the warnings of the surgeon general on cigarette packs does it state that SHS is harmful. It was the government who mandated the warnings be put on cigarette packs not the tobacco companies. They were merely conforming to the law as it was put down. The 4000 chemicals found in cigarette smoke were not even found to be statistically significant. In fact You inhale more carbon monoxide waiting for a red light to turn to green than you would if you spent a lifetime sitting in a room with a smoker.
Qwerty...keep up the good work!

[Ballardguy]

More news from the Attorney General:

The 1986 US Surgeon General's report on the health consequences of involuntary smoking reached 3 important conclusions about secondhand smoke:



Involuntary smoking causes disease, including lung cancer, in healthy nonsmokers.
When compared with the children of nonsmoking parents, children of parents who smoke have more frequent respiratory infections, more respiratory symptoms, and slower development of lung function as the lung matures.
Separating smokers and nonsmokers within the same air space may reduce, but does not eliminate, the exposure of nonsmokers to secondhand smoke.
There are 3 locations where you should be especially concerned about exposure to secondhand smoke:

Your workplace: Secondhand smoke meets the criteria to be classified as a potential cancer-causing agent by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA), the federal agency responsible for health and safety regulations in the workplace. The National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH), another federal agency, also recommends that secondhand smoke be considered a potential occupational carcinogen. Because there are no known safe levels, they recommend that exposures to secondhand smoke be reduced to the lowest possible levels.

Aside from protecting nonsmokers, workplace smoking restrictions may also encourage smokers who wish to quit or reduce their consumption of tobacco products.

Public places: Everyone is vulnerable to secondhand smoke exposure in public places, such as restaurants, shopping centers, public transportation, schools and daycare centers. Although some businesses are reluctant to ban smoking, there is no credible evidence that going smoke-free is bad for business. Public places where children go are a special area of concern.

Your home: Making your home smoke-free is perhaps one of the most important things you can do. Any family member can develop health problems related to secondhand smoke. Think about it: we spend more time at home than anywhere else. A smoke-free home protects your family, your guests, and even your pets.

Smoking Odors

There is no research in the medical literature about the cancer-causing effects of cigarette odors, but the literature shows that secondhand tobacco smoke can permeate the hair, clothing, and other surfaces. The unknown cancer causing effects would be minimal in comparison to direct secondhand smoke exposure, such as living in a household that has a smoker.

[Ballardguy]

While we are on the topic of surgeon general information....

The US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has classified secondhand smoke as a Group A carcinogen, which means that there is sufficient evidence that it causes cancer in humans. Environmental tobacco smoke has also been classified as a "known human carcinogen" by the US National Toxicology Program.

Secondhand tobacco smoke contains over 4,000 chemical compounds. More than 60 of these are known or suspected to cause cancer.

Secondhand smoke can be harmful in many ways. In the United States alone, each year it is responsible for:


An estimated 35,000 to 40,000 deaths from heart disease in people who are not current smokers
About 3,000 lung cancer deaths in nonsmoking adults
Other respiratory problems in nonsmokers, including coughing, phlegm, chest discomfort, and reduced lung function
150,000 to 300,000 lower respiratory tract infections (such as pneumonia and bronchitis) in children younger than 18 months of age, which result in 7,500 to 15,000 hospitalizations
Increases in the number and severity of asthma attacks in about 200,000 to 1 million asthmatic children

[Gres05]

The truth is that we nonsmokers are winning this war and the passage of I-901 was just the latest battle- not the last. As time passes, less people will smoke, less people will start, more people will quit. With each person that quits and each person that makes the decision not to start, we win more people to our side. Since 1998 smoking rates have gone down dramatically, in King County the smoking rate is now just 15%. Smoking bans cause many people to quit by making it less convenient and less attractive to smoke. This time next year the rates will be even lower.

If all the smokers have left- and really this is it- is to sit back and bitch and moan on their computers and try to sink a little deeper into denial...I say let them have at it. We are winning and we will win. All the smokers have to look forward to, besides dying early and having a greatly diminished quality of life than they otherwise would, is for nonsmokers to kick them out of parks, sidewalks, any outdoor public area, their own home when dependants are present, their own home if they live in multiple-family housing, their own car when dependants are present, being further ostricized by an ever-growing majority and keeping company with people who are more and more undesirable.

The future is very bleak for them and I can't imagine a level of denial that would make any smoker think otherwise. Everyday smoking if banned somewhere new, everyday they are fewer in numbers, it is truly hopeless for them. As addicts that are so self-deluded they deserve our pity. As people who are so rude and inconsiderate they will not volutarily take common sense efforts to ensure that others are not affected by their addiction- they deserve our bans. And they will get them. Keep this in mind, we are winning and we will continue to do so. Take comfort in that nonsmokers.

And smokers, for the love of god, GET HELP. You are addicted to a horrible product that reduces the years of healthy life you will live, cuts the length of your life, cost you ten of thousands of dollars, and causes you to be an outcast of the growing majority. It is hard to do, you need the help of a health care professional, but you need to quit. Every smoker knows deep down that it is true. Cigarettes are not your friends. You aren't being noble by fighting some brave battle for freedom, you won't die a patriot, you will die an addict. And here is how you will die, cursing your cigarettes, wishing you had quit along time ago...and smoking until the very end.

[breather]

Ballard Guy,
I too would like to be hearing more about the trials and tribulations of smokies hoofing it half a block to smoke and returning to a warm beer. It is, however, almost as entertaining to hack/crash the WA Smokers Alliance site and listen to them "strategize" on how to overcome the ban.
Among the gems:
they're going to try to raise "seed money" to start a WELL-FUNDED PR GROUP" that will educate Washingtonians on the finer points of smokie science, whereupon we'll all be outraged at the lies and overturn the ban.

Another bumpkin decided to delve into constitutional law and declared that the ban was unconstitutional because 18 - 20 yr olds voted on the ban but are not allowed in bars. I'm not making this up.

Then there's the founding partner of Hospitality Partners, the group of two who organized to defeat the ban at the polls and have now become high-powered lobbyists. Hearing these guys expound on the legislative process keeps making me think of Woody from cheers.

The there's the guy whose Ivy League educated state rep promised him that he would read Michael J "Cantiloper" McFadden's book (my nominee for Smokie of the Year) and take things under consideration next session.

Go there if you have time, it's almost as good as the smokies who were complaining that someone caught pneumonia because they had to go out and smoke.

[singinbill55]

Ballardguy, nice to hear from you again. I was just pointing out to Qwerty that cigarette packs have no mention of SHS on them. As far as the information you have displayed on your post you know as well as I do that I can find just as much information to refute it. What I am trying to say is there are two sides to the story and the one that is true is the one you choose to believe. Qwerty, on the other hand, seems to think smokers are evil, vile people and should be done away with. Also who cares if people can smoke in bars or not. What I care about is what rights business owners have had taken away. Seriously, is there really a reason smokers can't have their own establishments in which to enjoy their habits. If it is known that smoking is allowed in a place then the non smokers can seek entertainment elsewhere just as smokers would seek entertainment in a place other than a non smoking establishment. Why all this your not ok I'm not ok bullshit? Does this make any sense to you?

[Gres05]

The evidence on SHS is conclusive.

And you don't even need to have any degree to understand it, cigarette smoke is bad for you whether it is being sucked through a filter or if you are breathing it in the air.

Turns out it is a matter of exposure. A smoker is exposed to more smoke so there is more harm. However, less exposure only means less harm no exposure means no harm.

Smoking= 440,000 deaths a year
SHS= 60,000 deaths a year

Not as much for sure, but people do lose years of life because of it. Sure, the tobacco industry can pay for a few scientists to rig the evidence and make it appear that there may be some contention, just as other industries generate studies that show that humans aren't a cause of global warming.

The truth is this: those who smoke don't care enough about their own health so they damn sure don't care about what they are doing to a stranger's health and they just hide behind "studies" so that people may believe that they are ignorant of the damage they do when really...they really just are so addicted that they don't care if they harm someone else- they just have to feed the addiction.

Spend all the money you want to overturn the ban- it will not happen. The trend is for further acceptance of bans the longer they are in affect, not less. The support for this ban was 63% to begin with, next year it will be 75% and it will climb to over 90%. You have that right...in the near future, even a majority of smokers will support the ban. Don't believe me? Ask smokers if they should be able to smoke in a movie theater or on an airplane. 15 years ago most would have said yes, now only the most vile would.

Smokers from California used to come to seattle and comment about how backward are laws were regarding smoking. I know that hope is the last thing to die...but seriously guys, give up. And all this talk of moving? You are just delaying the inevitable, Kentucky- the number one tobacco exported in the US has begun to ban smoking county by county. I city in California just banned smoking in all indoor and outdoor public places, all private clubs, all workplaces, and in cars with children in them. That is what will be status quo in 10 years.

Most of you will have quit by then, and it will be partially these policies that you have to thank. I know you hate it, but one day most of you will be happy to have finally kicked your addiction. The ones who haven't will still secretly wish they could, and we will be there doing everything we can to help you :-)

[singinbill55]

When do you begin to sweat about your alcohol addiction? There is already talk about it being a carcinogen. And talk about the smell! And that guy who drank too much and got into his car to drive home because he thought he was capable and killed the unsuspecting pedestrian in the crosswalk because he didn't notice he was there. Or your caffein addiction that will raise your blood pressure and possibly give you a heart attack.Or your chocolate addiction which could lead to diabetes. Or your television addiction which could lead to obeisity. Or your gambling addiction which could lead to you losing everything you ever worked for. Or your sex addiction which could lead to STD's, or worse, getting involved with prostitution or your automobile addiction which could lead to drunk driving and what one could consider attempted murder.
Where do you get your information?
The evidence on SHS as far as being harmful is not conclusive.

[Gres05]

http://no-smoke.org/pdf/SHSBibliography.pdf

Over 400 studies. Stanton Glantz did a Lit Review of studies as well showing each study/who funded the study/the results/whether they were peer reviewed or not/and some othe factors.

Every study not paid for by tobacco showed that SHS is harmful to health. Every single one.

Oddly enough, every one paid for by tobacco was inconclusive or found no harm.

However, there were more studies done by a third party that found harm from SHS exposure than all of the tobacco sponsored ones. I would trust the third party results that were peer reviewed the most.

Also, EPA, CA EPA, NIH, CDC, Surgeon General just seem more trustworthy than say PM, RJR, BW, Lorillard seeing as how they all lied under oath claiming that nicotine isn't addictive when subsequent documents that were disclosed to the public showed they new of the adictiveness of nicotine since before 1950. I mean, they exist to sell a deadly product, of course they do whatever they can to help the bottom line just like any other corporation, you can't really blame them (well you can but in makes sense). What doesn't make sense is idiots that give their studies any weight let alone equal weight of unbiased sources.

[Rights]

All the smokers have to look forward to, besides dying early and having a greatly diminished quality of life than they otherwise would, is for nonsmokers to kick them out of parks, sidewalks, any outdoor public area, their own home when dependants are present...

Hmmm. Do I hear a resemblance to 1984? You going to start posting spies at our houses Gres05? You been corresponding with your ol’ friend W about how much can be accomplished if you could only segregate people, catch them hiding in corners to smoke a cig. Wait!! I got it, how about you start ease dropping on our phone calls? Then you can catch us talking about cigs.

Just wait Gres05; you’ve opened a floodgate. It always starts with “I don’t like it, so lets make a law against it.” Do I hear prohibition? Prohibition anyone?!?!?

You aren't being noble by fighting some brave battle for freedom

What would you call fighting for the freedom to enjoy a LEGAL substance? Again, a HIGHLY TAXED legal substance.


, the fact is that the mass majority of people do not smoke, and do not wish to be limited in their choice of where they can and cannot go for the silly reason of avoiding smoke.

This is what I don’t understand. Why? What is so wrong with putting forth the effort to look for a non-smoking environment? It’s what I did with my non-smoking friend before the law was passed. We used to go to Norms. Why can’t we all be happy?

We can go on and on about whether or not it is fair....right...etc...(and many have), but the simple fact on this matter is: majority rules. And it will continue to hold, because of another simple fact - smoking is not a right.

This is where I must agree. Majority does rule, you are right in that BridgeTroll.
A vote was given for the ban, and, for whatever reason it passed.
It really does no good to try to explain what majority voted because of what reason. Kinda like the 04 elections. It did no good, the shit is still president.

[qwerty]

child molestars should be kicked out of parks. grizzley bears should be kicked out of parks. psychopathic murderers should be kicked out of parks. smokers should be considerate DO NOT SMOKE IN PUBLIC. its just wrong to share your disease with others when you can avoid it.

fortunately 1200 american smokers die every day from smoking related illness. once they are dead they stop smoking in public and spreading their disease.

terrorists dont kill 1200 americans every day and yet the NSA monitors all their calls. smokers are a worse hazard. send them all to gitmo.

[Ballardguy]

When do you begin to sweat about your alcohol addiction? There is already talk about it being a carcinogen. And talk about the smell! .

If alcohol fumes from drinking potentially caused harm to others in the immediate area, then it probably would be a focus of a ban. It's not, so not comparable.


And that guy who drank too much and got into his car to drive home because he thought he was capable and killed the unsuspecting pedestrian in the crosswalk because he didn't notice he was there.

This is actually a good analogy. Drinking is not illegal, and smoking is not illegal. Drinking too much is not illegal - smoking too much is not illegal. Causing or potentially causing harm to others due to drinking (i.e. drunk driving) is illegal. Causing or potentially causing harm to others (i.e. smoking in public establishments) is illegal.

Or your caffein addiction that will raise your blood pressure and possibly give you a heart attack.Or your chocolate addiction which could lead to diabetes. Or your television addiction which could lead to obeisity. Or your gambling addiction which could lead to you losing everything you ever worked for.

Again - none of these have passive dangers. My coworker eating chocolate bon bons is not going to be a direct or indirect cause for me getting diabetes.

Or your sex addiction which could lead to STD's, or worse, getting involved with prostitution or your automobile addiction which could lead to drunk driving and what one could consider attempted murder.

Hmm...quite a string here... :). Same point though - if my coworker has an STD, I will not potentially get same just by being in the same room...clothed...working. If I actively have sex with her - I could get an STD. Just like if I actively smoke, I could get cancer. Then, in a fevered state...I would give in to my car addiction and run through a bus stop after downing a 5th of Tequila.


The evidence on SHS as far as being harmful is not conclusive.

Seriously Bill....is it truly your position that SHS is not harmful? Yes, you can find studies that question this, but I can find studies that state the world is flat (http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/fe-scidi.htm), that mankind on earth are a result of some alien tyrant named Xenu (http://www.scientology.org/) and that coffee enemas cure cancer (http://shanti.com.au/cleanses/gerson.htm).

Smokies all seem to generally concede that smoking is dangerous, but some argue that SHS is not. Why is that? Do smokie lungs magically clean the smoke leaving the body? Maybe Xenu helps out with this.

The huge preponderance of evidence is that SHS is harmful. Just curious...would anything convince you? I just see arguing about the "safety" of SHS as just being a big rabbit trail - or another reason to call Rights by his preferred name - Peter Pan. :)

[Rights]

or another reason to call Rights by his preferred name - Peter Pan. :)

Awe, Ballardguy, how sweet, I thought you forgot about me

1984 is so 20 years ago

Good job qwerty, you were only off by 2 years :)

child molestars should be kicked out of parks. grizzley bears should be kicked out of parks. psychopathic murderers should be kicked out of parks. smokers should be considerate DO NOT SMOKE IN PUBLIC. its just wrong to share your disease with others when you can avoid it.

fortunately 1200 american smokers die every day from smoking related illness. once they are dead they stop smoking in public and spreading their disease.

terrorists dont kill 1200 americans every day and yet the NSA monitors all their calls. smokers are a worse hazard. send them all to gitmo.

Ok, is it just me or does qwerty make less and less sense in each post.

[qwerty]

and yeah im getting a little more bored and hyperbolic. cheers!

[Jimmy Flame]

smoking is not a right.

Ummmm... Yes it is. I can buy cigs over the counter. Sure it's your right to be in the same room as me. I doubt I would ever hang out in the establishments you drink in. So why should you have a say in something that I do, that has nothing to do with you?

[qwerty]

youve obviously never read the bill of rights and/or your charcoalized grey matter has a dim understanding of the law. just because you can buy an item does not mean you have a right to use it to harm others. your self serving self indulgent ugliness is exactly why we need laws to restrict the misuse of tobacco products.

see that smoke escaping when you burn a cigarette? thats the reason its everyone elses problem. switch to snuff or chaw or one of your more civilized options. then you can kill/cripple yourself in public in a more descreet less hostile way. i cheer your suicide, but please dont drag me along.

[Jimmy Flame]

youve obviously never read the bill of rights and/or your charcoalized grey matter has a dim understanding of the law. just because you can buy an item does not mean you have a right to use it to harm others. your self serving self indulgent ugliness is exactly why we need laws to restrict the misuse of tobacco products.

see that smoke escaping when you burn a cigarette? thats the reason its everyone elses problem. switch to snuff or chaw or one of your more civilized options. then you can kill/cripple yourself in public in a more descreet less hostile way. i cheer your suicide, but please dont drag me along.

Yep. I've read the bill of rights. I don't think smoking a cigarette means I have a self indulgence problem. When I look in the mirror and see one hell of a body, thats self indulgence. Thats the truth! If you want to speak to me like a wrestler, meet me in the ring brother! Like I said before, I don't hang out with low life 9-5 types such as yourself. So what I do does not affect you. I'll partake in a good time, all the time. Just because you are a boring individual doesn't mean you have an all access pass to pussy-land. It's not like you could afford one anyway.

[Ballardguy]

Ummmm... Yes it is. I can buy cigs over the counter. Sure it's your right to be in the same room as me. I doubt I would ever hang out in the establishments you drink in. So why should you have a say in something that I do, that has nothing to do with you?

Ummmm...no it's not. Every time a smoking ban is challenged in court, the court has found that smoking is not a protected right. For example, in a challenge to the San Antonio ban, Judge Sparks ruled:

The bar owners also said the ban violates the First Amendment rights of free speech and religion by prohibiting some forms of tobacco advertising and incense-burning. Sparks wrote that the bar owners failed to prove those things and that "it is clear that there is no constitutional right to smoke in a public place."

There are many other examples of this - look it up. To argue that the ban is "unfair" is one thing - but to claim smoking is a "right" borders on absurd.

Can we please get this back to smokie stories about dealing with the 25 ft rule? Spring is upon us, and I'm worried that the good weather will decrease the sob factor.

[Jimmy Flame]

Edited for reasons beyond my control. Must be the crack habit I just aquired.

[qwerty]

im not sure most people find diseased decaying drug addicts to be sexy. i think thats a niche market. but god bless ya.

grrrrrrrr cough cough help ive been poisoned cough cough cough

[Jimmy Flame]

im not sure most people find diseased decaying drug addicts to be sexy. i think thats a niche market. but god bless ya.

grrrrrrrr cough cough help ive been poisoned cough cough cough

FYI. I take a physical and EKG every 6 months (as required by the state of Washington) for my fight license. Guess what!? I am in tip-top shape. Guess what else that means. I have no lung disease, or brain damage from smoking. Or from anything else. So cough all you want, the cause is more than likely from all the bullshit coming out of your ass.

[qwerty]

I gues you must be a freakin genius. but not smarty as me. cuz the dept of defense must give me a full body massage every 6 hours as psrt of my license to KILL. dude. dont mess with QWERTY. no.

cough your brain damage is contagious cough cough cough from the cigarette smoke cough cough carbon monoxide cough coug kills da brain cough cough and then you die cough make it stop

[Ballardguy]

I have no lung disease, or brain damage from smoking. Or from anything else.

Not yet at least. And I hope you never do. It was your right to decide as an adult to be a smokie and accept the risks. I respect that.

The disagreement boils down to whether or not it is acceptable to pass on that risk to others by means of second hand smoke. Secondary arguments can be made for the discomfort caused by SHS.

Whether or not you agree, the majority of the population said no. They also said no to the idea of having to dodge smokies in public. Hence the passage of 901.

[Jimmy Flame]

I gues you must be a freakin genius. but not smarty as me. cuz the dept of defense must give me a full body massage every 6 hours as psrt of my license to KILL. dude. dont mess with QWERTY. no.

cough your brain damage is contagious cough cough cough from the cigarette smoke cough cough carbon monoxide cough coug kills da brain cough cough and then you die cough make it stop

Oh so now your gonna' kill me? What the fuck ever. Whatever makes you feel better.

[Jimmy Flame]

Whether or not you agree, the majority of the population said no. They also said no to the idea of having to dodge smokies in public. Hence the passage of 901.

Yep. But there should be compromises. There are enough people who would like to smoke. For instance a cigar lounge. Why can't that option exist?

[Matt]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh haaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.komotv.com/stories/42830.htm

"This law is so simple it can be summarized in two words 'no smoking,' " said Thurston County Deputy Prosecutor Allen Miller. The judge agreed, and now the owners of Frankie's must comply with the smoking ban or face contempt of court charges.

Too bad, nicotine addicts!!!

Btw, maggie, your #1232 post was a glorious thing to behold. You are to be commended for your brilliance.

[Matt]

Thanks, all. It's been a great thread. But I've decided that this will be the last post.

Here's the summary:

901 passed. Overwhelmingly. A long time ago. It's a done deal.

Note to nicotine addicts: Wipe your eyes, grow up, stop your incessant immature whining, deal with it, move on, and get over it.

IOW, we kicked your asses.

[Jimmy Flame]

Note to nicotine addicts: Wipe your eyes, grow up, stop your incessant immature whining, deal with it, move on, and get over it.

IOW, we kicked your asses.

Grow up? Then you say you kicked our ass'? Hahahahahahahaaaaaa...
Didn't realize there was a fight going on.

[qwerty]

cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough

[Jimmy Flame]

cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough
http://ic1.deviantart.com/fs10/i/2006/098/a/6/jimmy_flame_and_the_sexy_boys_by_five20one.gif

[Sirkulat]

Fucking Seattle liberals!, or whoever came up with the stupid ass ban smoking nonsense. Hey! Let's get into a fucking rumble! Yeah, smoking kills. Got it. Thank you, I won't do that, didn't need you to make it illegal, asshole. Try fucking not inhaling!

Hey morons! The man is robbing you of your purpose. Drive asshole. Put your money down, pay your gasoline bill and drive, fuckwit. Oh, what a lovely white trash trailer you got. Your mullet look so right. Go count the beans. Your money when you're done, fool.

[qwerty]

Can you say that again? I wasnt taking my lithium a second ago.

[Jimmy Flame]

Hmmmmm... Sometimes the only thing a person can afford is a trailer to live in. There is nothing funny about poverty. Unless you get to go spend your foodstamps in front of angry construction workers. Now thats funny!

[breather]

querty,

On behalf of the entire pro-ban, fuck-the smokies-movement, please go away. You are nonsensical, illiterate at times, have nothing to say and yet you keep talking.

Flamer or Sexy Boy, whichever you prefer, you're probably about the best that your side can muster. You people just lost two court challenges. A superior court judge in Spokane County threatened one of your bumpkin tavern owners with contempt of court for not enforcing the ban, as did a judge in Thurston County to yet another bumpkin with an either unscrupulous or unschooled lawyer who was willing to take his money and file his case, such as it was.

[BridgeTroll]

Fucking Seattle liberals!, or whoever came up with the stupid ass ban smoking nonsense. Hey! Let's get into a fucking rumble! Yeah, smoking kills. Got it. Thank you, I won't do that, didn't need you to make it illegal, asshole. Try fucking not inhaling! blah blah blah

Yeah! Fuck the Seattle liberals! And...the Tacoma liberals...Spokane liberals...Walla Walla liberals....Arizona liberals.......Austin Texas liberals....New York liberals....Chicago liberals....London liberals...Glasgow liberals...Dublin liberals....Tanzania (yes...Tanzania) liberals........fuck em all!

Bans are everywhere, and more and more are being enacted every month.

Idiot.

[Jimmy Flame]

querty,

On behalf of the entire pro-ban, fuck-the smokies-movement, please go away. You are nonsensical, illiterate at times, have nothing to say and yet you keep talking.

Flamer or Sexy Boy, whichever you prefer, you're probably about the best that your side can muster. You people just lost two court challenges. A superior court judge in Spokane County threatened one of your bumpkin tavern owners with contempt of court for not enforcing the ban, as did a judge in Thurston County to yet another bumpkin with an either unscrupulous or unschooled lawyer who was willing to take his money and file his case, such as it was.

Thats funny. I haven't challenged anything. I'm not on anyones side. I can't smoke indoors anymore. So what! As for the "bumpkin" comment. I grew up in the city dipshit. Besides, this is a public forum. We can rant at each other all we want. That doesn't accomplish anything.

[Rights]

querty,

On behalf of the entire pro-ban, fuck-the smokies-movement, please go away. You are nonsensical, illiterate at times, have nothing to say and yet you keep talking.


Well, isn’t that nice :)

Between all of us that have posted on this forum, we may not agree with smoking bans (i.e., smokie rights) but, I think it is safe to say that we all agree that querty makes ABSOLUTLY no sense, and the only good we have gotten out of all his posts is a good laugh at his lack of intellectual commentary.

Thanks querty, it’s nice to be reminded that no matter how asinine anyone’s comments are you will surely outshine them with your large vocabulary of “cough, cough cough”

[Ballardguy]

Yep. But there should be compromises. There are enough people who would like to smoke. For instance a cigar lounge. Why can't that option exist?

Do you really think a cigar lounge would quell the smokies? I would say the smokie majority wants one thing. To smoke in bars, restaurants, etc....just as it was before the ban took effect. I don't see that option ever occurring again in our lifetime.

[qwerty]

cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough

[Jimmy Flame]

cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough

Sounds like you need a Halls.

[whowhatwherewhen]

Fine, the non-smokers are winning, have won, whatever. But the next time some self righteous fuck coughs at me or decides to share their opinion with me when I'm already in excess of 25ft from a public entrance or air duct, I'm going to shotgun them a mouthful of smoke or if their superior attitude poisons my personal space (aka gets aggressive), I'm going to drop kick their self righteous ass into the clean air environment they can find in a hospital oxygen tent.

I'll keep away from you. Stay out of my space and in the ones you've so gloriously won!

[Sonoma]

Breather,

"You people"? "bumpkins"? Certainly not politically correct, my dear. Not really much nicer than qwerty's "diseased decaying drug addicts".

And here I thought YOU people were so vehement about tolerance and "diversity".

[breather]

Breather,

"You people"? "bumpkins"? Certainly not politically correct, my dear. Not really much nicer than qwerty's "diseased decaying drug addicts".

And here I thought YOU people were so vehement about tolerance and "diversity".

Actually, the only thing that we're vehement about is driving your smokie asses out of the bar, off the patio and way the hell away from the building. In other words, go smoke in traffic.

[Sonoma]

Do you also recommend sending all pot smokers to prison? How about fat people? Do they have a place in your tidy little world?

[qwerty]

you can smoke all you want but keep the poison smoke to yourself.

dont share disease. if you were a leper would you go around shaking peoples hands and complain like a big baby when people recoiled? if you had ebola would you cough with your mouth wide open on the bus and curse the people that move away from you? etc etc

the angry chimney sweep should stop acting like a troll and people will treat you better then you wont have to waste your time getting andgry and threatening everyone. change your dirty daiper

[whowhatwherewhen]

but I doubt you are so brave when you are in the real world with real people. You have the right to breath... I have the right not to be harassed for consuming a legal stick of tobacco within the parameters of the law as it stands.

It's funny that you point to leprosy because that's exactly how smokers are being treated by the likes of yourself. I will not tolerate being treated as such but am willing to stand in the street as to not cause conflict. If you come forth and poke me with a stick, damn right I'm going to share my cooties.

Just remember that while your vote may have counted, you are not an enforcer and confrontations get people hurt. Keep your opinions and confrontational attitude in a BB where you can't be touched. If my smoke irritates you, call a cop. Call the health department. Don't even think about talking to this leper about it when I'm obeying the law.

I'll be a good kiddy and stay out your way so you have nothing to be concerned about unless you poke at me.

I've had it with the harassment. That was not the intent of the initiative.

[Sonoma]

...of brain washing, Doctor. Poor qwerty has such a horrible fear of a few wisps of smoke in the air he sees the boogyman everywhere. Angry? No, poor little creatures like you are to be pitied and protected from bugs and germs and all the other awful things this real world threatens. Good job Big Brother is taking care of you. Maybe you can scrabble your way down to the chemist and get a free prescription for that awful cough of yours. Ooh, be careful, now! Don't let anyone TOUCH you!

[qwerty]

if some one was putting bugs on me, i would object. you seem to forget that "a few wisps of smoke" KILL PEOPLE.

do you see the warnings on the pack of cigarettes? does it say "dont worry about a few wisps of smoke"

[Sonoma]

Someone else's cigarette smoke can NOT kill you. Unless you get so panicked by the sight of it you run out into the street in front of a car.

[breather]

Do you also recommend sending all pot smokers to prison? How about fat people? Do they have a place in your tidy little world?

The only, and I do mean only, good thing to come of the prohibition of pot is that potsmokers (which is me occassionally) have been conditioned to take it out where no one else has to breathe it.
Regarding fat people, if they don't smoke or wear spandex in public it's all good.

[BridgeTroll]

Fine, the non-smokers are winning, have won, whatever. But the next time some self righteous fuck coughs at me or decides to share their opinion with me when I'm already in excess of 25ft from a public entrance or air duct, I'm going to shotgun them a mouthful of smoke or if their superior attitude poisons my personal space (aka gets aggressive), I'm going to drop kick their self righteous ass into the clean air environment they can find in a hospital oxygen tent.

I'll keep away from you. Stay out of my space and in the ones you've so gloriously won!


Oooh....roughh and tough! What a bunch of blather! LMAO.

Where is your watering hole? I want to watch you storm after someone for 10 feet until you have to take a "breather" (no offense to Breather on this blog).

[BridgeTroll]

Someone else's cigarette smoke can NOT kill you. Unless you get so panicked by the sight of it you run out into the street in front of a car.

Peter? Is that you? Is it true? Yes! He's alive! Peter Pan is alive!!!!!

Do you really believe in safe SHS Peter? Maybe that's because you have the mind of a 12 year old boy for all of eternity.....

[Ballardguy]

but I doubt you are so brave when you are in the real world with real people. You have the right to breath... I have the right not to be harassed for consuming a legal stick of tobacco within the parameters of the law as it stands.

Absolutely! Smoke away! Just not in public establishments, or I'll kick your ass. :).

It's funny that you point to leprosy because that's exactly how smokers are being treated by the likes of yourself. I will not tolerate being treated as such but am willing to stand in the street as to not cause conflict. If you come forth and poke me with a stick, damn right I'm going to share my cooties.

blah blah blah blah blah.....

I've had it with the harassment. That was not the intent of the initiative.

This is more like it! Share your stories of persecution WWWW (what happened to how?). You got poked with a stick?? Details, details!

W4 has got it right. The focus of this blog should be smokie tales of woe. Let the sobbing begin!

[Sonoma]

Maybe that's because you have the mind of a 12 year old boy for all of eternity.....

The sad fact is that you have been conditioned (http://truthisalie.com) to believe that SHS is "the most harmful pollutant".

While there is concrete scientific evidence that proves smoking (tobacco OR any other substance) is a health risk to those who actually do it; there is virtually NONE that proves any serious side effects to non-smokers exposed to tobacco smoke. Not one of the oft-quoted studies is anything more than epidemiological speculation produced by research based on a pre-set agenda.

The ETS battle strategy was decided upon years before any of the epidemiological research supposedly linking secondary smoke to long-term health consequences had been produced. In 1975 (probably before most of you were born) Sir George Godber, British delegate to the World Health Organization, presented his blueprint for eliminating tobacco use worldwide by changing social attitudes:
"...it would be essential to foster an atmosphere where it was perceived that active smokers would injure those around them, especially their family and any infants or young children who would be exposed involuntarily to ETS"

For those of you who don't recognize it, the quote I used above for the title of this post is from Joseph Goebbels, who was Hitler's Minister of Propaganda. The German AntiTobacco League of the 1930's literally wrote the book that today's anti-smoking crusaders follow.

What is taking place is called "social engineering" and it should alarm any reasonable intelligent adult.

[BridgeTroll]

The sad fact is that you have been conditioned (http://truthisalie.com) to believe that SHS is "the most harmful pollutant".

Lots of blah blah blah.....

What is taking place is called "social engineering" and it should alarm any reasonable intelligent adult.

Well then, I stand corrected! Thanks Peter for your thoughtful analysis explaining the safety of second hand smoke. I for one, am totally convinced despite overwhelming empirical evidence to the contrary.

Hey! This might be of interest to you. It's called the flat earth society (http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm) . They have conclusively shown that we have been conditioned to believe the earth is round. They actually have evidence that the world really is flat!! See for yourself. Oh, and before I forget, here's some great information about dinosaurs (http://contenderministries.org/evolution/dinosaurs.php) . They did exist, but they popped suddenly on the planet in just ONE DAY! And then disappeared almost as fast. Amazing stuff.

Say hi to the Captain.

[qwerty]

Secondhand smoke, also know as environmental tobacco smoke, is a mixture of the smoke given off by the burning end of a cigarette, pipe or cigar and the smoke exhaled from the lungs of smokers. It is involuntarily inhaled by nonsmokers, lingers in the air hours after cigarettes have been extinguished and can cause or exacerbate a wide range of adverse health effects, including cancer, respiratory infections, and asthma.1

Secondhand smoke has been classified by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) as a known cause of cancer in humans (Group A carcinogen).2
Secondhand smoke causes approximately 3,000 lung cancer deaths and 35,000-62,000 heart disease deaths in adult nonsmokers in the United States each year.3
A study found that nonsmokers exposed to environmental smoke were 25 percent more likely to have coronary heart diseases compared to nonsmokers not exposed to smoke.4
Nonsmokers exposed to secondhand smoke at work are at increased risk for adverse health effects. Levels of ETS in restaurants and bars were found to be 2 to 5 times higher than in residences with smokers and 2 to 6 times higher than in office workplaces.5
Since 1999, 70 percent of the U.S. workforce worked under a smoke-free policy, ranging from 83.9 percent in Utah to 48.7 percent in Nevada.6 Workplace productivity was increased and absenteeism was decreased among former smokers compared with current smokers.7
As of 2005, 9 smoke-free states prohibit smoking in almost all workplaces, including restaurants and bars (CA, CT, DE, ME, MA, NY, RI, VT and WA).8
Secondhand smoke is especially harmful to young children. Secondhand smoke is responsible for between 150,000 and 300,000 lower respiratory tract infections in infants and children under 18 months of age, resulting in between 7,500 and 15,000 hospitalizations each year, and causes 1,900 to 2,700 sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS) deaths in the United States annually.9
Secondhand smoke exposure may cause buildup of fluid in the middle ear, resulting in 700,000 to 1.6 million physician office visits per year. Secondhand smoke can also aggravate symptoms in 400,000 to 1,000,000 children with asthma.10
In the United States, 21 million, or 35 percent of, children live in homes where residents or visitors smoke in the home on a regular basis.11 Approximately 50-75 percent of children in the United States have detectable levels of cotinine, the breakdown product of nicotine in the blood.12
New research indicates that secret research conducted by cigarette company Philip Morris in the 1980s showed that secondhand smoke was highly toxic, yet the company suppressed the finding during the next two decades.13
For more information on secondhand smoke, please review the Tobacco Morbidity and Mortality Trend Report as well as our Lung Disease Data publication in the Data and Statistics section of our website, or call the American Lung Association at 1-800-LUNG-USA (1-800-586-4872).

Sources:

1. California Environmental Protection Agency. Health Effects of Exposure to Environmental Tobacco Smoke. September 1997.
2. U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. Respiratory Health Effects of Passive Smoking: Lung Cancer and Other Disorders. December 1992.
3. California Environmental Protection Agency. Health Effects of Exposure to Environmental Tobacco Smoke. September 1997.
4. He, J.; Vupputuri, S.; Allen, K.; et al. Passive Smoking and the Risk of Coronary Heart Disease-A Meta-Analysis of Epidemiologic Studies. New England Journal of Medicine 1999; 340: 920-6.
5. U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. Report on Carcinogens, Tenth Edition 2002. National Toxicology Program.
6. Shopland, D. Smoke-Free Workplace Coverage. Journal of Occupational and Environmental Medicine. 2001; 43(8): 680-686.
7. Halpern, M.T.; Shikiar, R.; Rentz, A.M.; Khan, Z.M. Impact of Smoking Status on Workplace Absenteeism and Productivity. Tobacco Control 2001; 10: 233-238.
8. American Lung Association, State of Tobacco Control: 2005.
9. California Environmental Protection Agency. Health Effects of Exposure to Environmental Tobacco Smoke. September 1997.
10. Ibid.
11. Schuster, MA, Franke T, Pham CB. Smoking Patterns of Household Members and Visitors in Homes with Children in United States. Archives of Pediatric Adolescent Medicine. Vol. 156, 2002: 1094-1100.
12. U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. America's Children and the Environment: Measures of Contaminants, Body Burdens, and Illnesses. Second Edition. February 2003
13. Diethelm PA, Rielle JC, McKee M. The Whole Truth and Nothing but the Truth? The Research Philip Morris Did Not Want You to See. Lancet. Vol. 364 No. 9446, 2004

[Sonoma]

Now, go do some actual research into what the source studies you quote ACTUALLY say, instead of what some tobacco control organization TELLS you they say. If that's too much work, go here. (http://www.davehitt.com/facts/index.html) The author has done a good job of explaining meta-studies, which are the basis of every one of the reports you've listed below. In particular, read the section called "Agendas" because it explains who the author is and outlines HIS agenda as well as that of the ATI.

Another excellent source that refutes some of this propaganda that has turned you into a self-righteous, hate-filled and frightened fanatic is actually a tobacco control activist himself. His name is Dr. Michael Seigel. You can read what he has to say on his blog. (http://tobaccoanalysis.blogspot.com/)

And "Bridgetroll" (good moniker!) if you want "overwhelming empirical evidence", you need to dig a bit deeper than the pamphlet you picked up during "Kick Butts Day".

[qwerty]

its interesting that you've found yourself a little imaginary friend like mr. snuffaluffagus that tells you to ignore all health warnings and its ok to poison air you share with healthy human beings. although, everyone else has a hard time believing in mr.snuffaluffagus, (even the tobacco industry). you love your him, fuck everyone else all the scientists and health professionals - they cant give you what mr. snuffaluffagus can: a clear conscience, when you poison the air around healthy people.

BUT WHAT IF YOURE WRONG? WHAT IF YOUR FKKIN CRAZY and thats why no one believes you and your fantasy - then youre a fkkn killer.

why not error on the side of caution?

[Sonoma]

And I don't envy you your very narrow world. There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

[Ballardguy]

Now, go do some actual research into what the source studies you quote ACTUALLY say, instead of what some tobacco control organization TELLS you they say. If that's too much work, go here. (http://www.davehitt.com/facts/index.html) The author has done a good job of explaining meta-studies, which are the basis of every one of the reports you've listed below. In particular, read the section called "Agendas" because it explains who the author is and outlines HIS agenda as well as that of the ATI.

Another excellent source that refutes some of this propaganda that has turned you into a self-righteous, hate-filled and frightened fanatic is actually a tobacco control activist himself. His name is Dr. Michael Seigel. You can read what he has to say on his blog. (http://tobaccoanalysis.blogspot.com/)

And "Bridgetroll" (good moniker!) if you want "overwhelming empirical evidence", you need to dig a bit deeper than the pamphlet you picked up during "Kick Butts Day".


Yeah, yeah, yeah....smoke is good for you. That's all been said and done in past posts Peter, by friends of yours such as Alice (in Wonderland), Dorothy (in Oz) and James (of Giant Peach fame). Go ahead and live in your fantasy world - more power to you.

Can we please move on to sob stories? W4, where are you?

[singinbill55]

Qwerty, ranting as usual. Just one question. Where on a pack of cigaretts does it say SHS is harmful?

[Sonoma]

The teacher I was fortunate to draw for my required freshman high school science course made a major impact on my life with only one experiment.

He put together a tray of a dozen or so items from the lab and passed it around the class, then placed the tray on a table at the front of the classroom. On the board, he had written what he told us was a complete list of those items and as we were examining the tray for ourselves, he repeated "the list" over and over. Then he had us write down what was on the tray. He even told us we could come up and look at it again if we needed to do that. No one did.

And NOT ONE person got all of the items right. Some wrote the list he kept repeating, some wrote the list that was on the board. Neither spoken nor written list was correct and complete. None of us wrote down exactly what was on the tray.

Why? Because if we didn't believe what he said, we did believe what he wrote. I mean, c'mon, why would our teacher LIE to us??

The lesson was elementary: Never believe everything you hear, don't believe half of what you read. Check the facts before you trust even your own opinion. A lesson I've never forgotten and one that goes far beyond the realm of science.

[BridgeTroll]

Now, go do some actual research into what the source studies you quote ACTUALLY say, instead of what some tobacco control organization TELLS you they say. If that's too much work, go here. (http://www.davehitt.com/facts/index.html) The author has done a good job of explaining meta-studies, which are the basis of every one of the reports you've listed below. In particular, read the section called "Agendas" because it explains who the author is and outlines HIS agenda as well as that of the ATI.

blah blah blah blah etc...

And "Bridgetroll" (good moniker!) if you want "overwhelming empirical evidence", you need to dig a bit deeper than the pamphlet you picked up during "Kick Butts Day".

Snort....You are using Dave Hitt as your source data?? LMAO. That dude is a mime in a improv group. Great resource! Go Peter!

[Ballardguy]

The teacher I was fortunate to draw for my required freshman high school science course made a major impact on my life with only one experiment.

He put together a tray of a dozen or so items ....blah blah blah...A lesson I've never forgotten and one that goes far beyond the realm of science.

What about the trains? You know, two trains leave the station in opposite directions..etc.... Are you saying that had no impact on your life?

You crack me up. BTW Peter - You have an awesome home page (http://www.pixyland.org/peterpan/).

[Rights]

What about the trains? You know, two trains leave the station in opposite directions..etc.... Are you saying that had no impact on your life?

You crack me up. BTW Peter - You have an awesome home page (http://www.pixyland.org/peterpan/).

Oh Ballardguy, I thought you were better than that. Are we back to resorting to Peter Pan name calling? Come on, I know you must have something more intelligent to say than that :)

Oh, and as far as us “smokies” telling sob stories about the 25 foot rule, I think the most you’ll get it is whowhatwherewhen voicing angrily (rightfully, so by the way) his dealings with shithead, righteous pricks who want to start a fight with a non-confrontational smoker.
I don’t see you getting the crybaby whinny stories that you so anxiously anticipate.

Great story by the way Sonoma,
If all teachers taught that way, maybe we wouldn’t have half the problems in today’s society as we do.

[Sonoma]

That dude is a mime in a improv group.

Yes, Dave Hitt is a humorist. That doesn't detract either from his credibility nor from the legitimate research provided on the link I offered. What is presented is not his OPINION, but carefully researched, solid, verifiable facts.

His site was among the first to publish such a comprehensive look at the methods used and the agendas behind the junk science you bow down to. I doubt you bothered to read the section I suggested - if you had, perhaps you wouldn't be so quick to dismiss him based on his avocation. You may even find you agree with at least some of his opinions, ie:
I find the continuing attacks on smokers and smoking a perfect microcosm of just about everything wrong with the United States:

• People unwilling to take responsibility for their own actions or decisions
• Demands that stupidity be profitable
• Insistence that life be risk free
• People who willingly take a well known risk, then demand compensation if they get hurt
• The deep dishonesty of spewing junk science to support an agenda
• The eagerness of the government and charity organizations to create that junk science
• The scientific illiteracy of the masses, which makes it easy for them to accept junk science
• The endless greed of the US government
• The endless greed of many US citizens
• The unfathomable greed of lawyers
• The incessant yammering of the sanctimonious nannies, who insist that they know what's best for everyone else


So, oh-troll-o-mio, You can LYAO all you want. That won't change the facts.

[Sonoma]

What about the trains? You know, two trains leave the station in opposite directions..etc.... Are you saying that had no impact on your life?

You crack me up. BTW Peter - You have an awesome home page (http://www.pixyland.org/peterpan/).


Of course "the trains" had an impact on my life. I choose to take the less crowded one, rather than ride with the "sheep". Elegant accommodations, fine and witty reparte and most important - intelligent, educated individuals who still think for themselves. It still offers a "smoking lounge" BTW, one where free-thinking, well-mannered non-smokers are most welcome and often present because they enjoy the ambiance. If you should ever become one of them, we'd love to have you join us.

The incorrigible, ill-tempered "Aunties" (http://smokersrebellion.blogspot.com/2006/03/i-don-theen-so-lucy.html), however, are redirected to the train going in the opposite direction. If one sneaks aboard and remains undiscovered until the train begins to move he/she is confined to the smoke-free baggage car for safety (OUR safety, that is) and then gently escorted off at the next stop. We don't believe in ass-kicking unless it's in self defense.

[MuayThaiManiac]

when the 25 foot law was first implemented for the first week or so I abided, until one day I walked to what i thought was 25 feet away from the hotel I was at (40 or more feet from any person) and lit up, shortly after a security guard walked from inside the building talking on his radio as if I had been reported by someone, he told me I needed to move 25 feet away from the bulding, so I walked across the street and was told by a bellhop for a different hotel that I was now too close to this building. I just ignored him and finished my cigarette, after the third time he told me I needed to move, he just sighed and walked away. I won.

put up all of the bans you want, I'm still gonna smoke where and when I want to if I am in an open air setting... I haven't been affected by the ban at all, I smoke when I feel like it and if someone tells me to move 25 feet away I simply refuse... if they want to call the police they can. I have had hundreds of these small victories, and every one is equally satisfying. I have had the police come, and by the time they arrived my cigarette had been put out... I easily talked my way out of a fine and agreed to move along, and that was the end of that... I know alot of cops and none I know of would waste their time writing a chicken shit smoking ticket, all that paperwork for basically nothing, alot of cops smoke too and will sympathize!

No one joined the force to cater to whiny bitches who have such an absence of real problems in their lives that they need to create their own .

Besides, I do not mind putting myself at risk of a fine, I have been violating this law every day for over a year and haven't been fined once, and I think smoking freely is worth paying a fine once a year, hell I'm not poor I'd pay the fine once a month.

best way to fight these laws are just to not abide by them. for the most part anti smokers are just feeble whiny little bitches anyway, and will back down instantly when you tell them you won't play their ridiculous games. I wish every smoker would stand up and do what I'm doing, I cannot be stopped, THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO! HA!

[Sonoma]

...Welcome to The Smokers' Rebellion (http://smokersrebellion.net)

[Ballardguy]

Of course "the trains" had an impact on my life. I choose to take the less crowded one, rather than ride with the "sheep". Elegant accommodations, fine and witty reparte and most important - intelligent, educated individuals who still think for themselves. It still offers a "smoking lounge" BTW, one where free-thinking, well-mannered non-smokers are most welcome and often present because they enjoy the ambiance. If you should ever become one of them, we'd love to have you join us.

blah blah blah blah blah...

Another reinforcement of one of my earlier theories...give an ape a cigarette and he thinks he's a philosopher.

[qwerty]

Second-hand smoke contains carbon monoxide, ammonia, formaldehyde, benzo[a]pyrene and nitrosamines.

Cigarettes may cause sexual impotence due to decreased blood flow to the penis. This can prevent you from having an erection.

Tobacco smoke contains hydrogen cyanide. It can cause headaches, dizziness, weakness, nausea, vertigo, and stomach aches in smokers and non-smokers.

Tobacco smoke can cause the arteries in your brain to clog. This can block the blood vessels and cause a stroke. A stroke can cause disability and death.

Cigarette smoke causes oral cancer, gum diseases and tooth loss.

The smoke from a cigarette is not just inhaled by the smoker. It becomes second-hand smoke, which contains more than 50 cancer-causing agents.

85% of lung cancers are caused by smoking. 80% of lung cancer victims die within three years.

Smoke from a lit cigarette contains toxic substances like hydrogen cyanide, formaldehyde and benzene. Second-hand smoke can cause death from lung cancer and other diseases.

Many toxic and tumoric agents have been identified in mainstream smoke and undiluted cigarette sidestream smoke (ETS). Hydrogen cyanide was found in the smoke vapor phase.

Hydrogen cyanide is considered to be one of the most toxic agents found in vapor phase tobacco smoke. Hydrogen cyanide contributes the acute toxicity of tobacco smoke. Many short-term and long-term toxic effects of cigarette smoke have been associated with its presence in tobacco smoke.

Acute exposure to lower concentrations of hydrogen cyanide will cause a variety of effects in humans, such as weakness, headache, nausea, increased rate of respiration, and eye and skin irritation.

Environmental Tobacco Smoke (ETS), or second-hand smoke, contains over 4,000 chemicals, including over 50 compounds which have been identified by the US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) or the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC), as known or probable human carcinogens. Second-hand smoke is a major cause of lung cancer in non-smokers Cancer mortality from second-hand smoke alone is greater than the combined mortality from all regulated environmental carcinogens, including asbestos and PCBs.

Environmental Tobacco Smoke (ETS), or sidestream smoke, contains over 4,000 chemicals. Over 50 of these compounds have been identified in tobacco smoke, by the US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) or the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC), to be known or probable human carcinogens.

Many toxic and tumoric agents have been identified in undiluted cigarette sidestream smoke.

Benzene, carbon monoxide, formaldehyde, hydrazine, N-Nitrosodimethylamine, and N-Nitrosopyrrolidine were found in the smoke vapor phase. While tar, benzo[a]pyrene, cadmium, nickel, N-Nitrosonornicotine NNN and 4-(methylnitrosamino)-1-(3-pyridyl-1-butanone) NNK were rather found in smoke particulate phase .

Cancer-causing agents like Tobacco-Specific Nitrosamines (TSNA) and Benzo[a]pyrene (B[a]P) have been detected in sidestream smoke of different tobacco products. The levels found were for cigars: total TSNA from 12.38 to 46.14 µg/g, B[a]P from 1.0 to 29.5 µg/g and pipe tobacco total TSNA from 27.74 to 62.07 µg/g, B[a]P from 4.2 to 47.3 µg/g

[Sonoma]

Another reinforcement of one of my earlier theories...give an ape a cigarette and he thinks he's a philosopher.

And you have reinforced one of mine... Give a baboon self-righteous rhetoric and he becomes an evangelist.

[singinbill55]

Lots of reading but worth the readThe EPA Report
In December of 1992 the EPA released it's now famous report on second hand smoke. The report claimed that SHS causes 3,000 deaths a year, and classified it as a class A carcinogen.
This was, and remains, a powerful weapon in the anti-smokers arsenal. If a smoker is only hurting himself, he can argue that it's no one else's business. But if he is hurting everyone around him, all kinds of restrictive legislation can be justified.
Is SHS really deadly? Let's examine the facts carefully.
Fact: In 1993 the EPA issued a report which claimed that Environmental Tobacco Smoke (ETS) caused 3,000 deaths per year.
Fact: ETS is commonly referred to as Second Hand Smoke (SHS). The two terms are interchangeable.
After reading each of the following facts, ask yourself "Does this fact make the study more credible, or less credible?
Fact: The EPA announced the results of the study before it was finished.
Fact: The study was a Meta Analysis, an analysis of existing studies.
Meta Analysis is very difficult to do accurately, and is the easiest kind of study to fake and manipulate. With a disease as rare as lung cancer, leaving out just a few important studies can skew the results considerably.
The term "Meta Study" is often used to describe this type of report, but the word "study" is inaccurate. The EPA has never conducted nor financed a single ETS study. They have only analyzed the studies of others. It is more accurate to refer to it as an analysis, and to its publication as a report.
Fact: The first step in a meta analysis is identifying all of the relevant studies. The EPA located 33 studies that compared ETS exposure to lung cancer rates.
Fact: The EPA selected 31 of the 33 studies. Later they rejected one of their chosen studies, bringing the total to 30.
Fact: On page 3-46 of the report the EPA estimates, based on nicotine measurements in non-smokers blood, "this would translate to the equivalent of about one-fifth of a cigarette per day."
Fact: Studies that measured actual exposure by having non-smokers wear monitors indicate even this low estimate is exaggerated. Actual exposure (for people who live and/or work in smoky environments) is about six cigarettes per year. (See also the study by Oak Ridge National Laboratories.)
Fact: In 1995 The Congressional Research Service (CRS) released a review of the EPA report.
The CRS was highly critical of both the EPA's methods and conclusions.
Fact: According to the CRS "The studies relied primarily on questionnaires to the case and control members, or their surrogates, the determine EST exposure and other information pertinent to the studies.
Questionnaires can be notoriously inaccurate, as discussed in Epidemiology 102, but in this case some of them were not even filled out by the people being studied, but by "surrogates." In other words, some of the information was unverified hearsay.
Fact: The CRS pointed out that "from a group of 30 studies. . six found a statistically significant (but small) effect, 24 found no statistically significant effect and six of the 24 found a passive smoking effect opposite to the expected relationship."
Fact: Three other large US studies were in progress during the EPA's study. The EPA used data from one uncompleted study, the Fontham study, and ignored the other two, Brownson and Kabat.
Fact: The Fontham study showed a small increase in risk. The CRS report referred to it as "a positive risk that was barely statistically significant." (p. 25)
Fact: The CRS report said the Brownson study, which the EPA ignored, showed "no risk at all." (p.25)
Fact: The "scientists" who conducted the Fontham study refused to release their raw data for years. Philip Morris recently won a lawsuit to gain access to it.
Most researchers routinely make their raw data available after studies have been published. Does Fontham's refusal to make the data available make them more credible, or less credible?
Fact: The EPA based their numbers on a meta analysis of just 11 studies. The analysis showed no increase in risk at the 95% confidence level.
Fact: Even after excluding most of the studies, the EPA couldn't come up with 3,000 deaths, but they had already announced the results. So they doubled their margin of error. Let me repeat that, because it may seem hard to believe: After failing to achieve their pre-announced results by ignoring half of the data, they doubled their margin of error!
Would any legitimate epidemiologist keep their job if they were caught doubling their margin of error to support a pre-announced conclusion?
Fact: After juggling the numbers, The EPA came up with an RR (Relative Risk) of ETS causing lung cancer 1.19. In layman's terms that means:
• Exposure to the ETS from a spouse increases the risk of getting lung cancer by 19%. • Where you'd usually see 100 cases of cancer you'd see 119.
Fact: A RR of less than 2.0 is usually written off as and insignificant result, most likely to be due to error or bias. An RR of 3.0 or higher is considered desirable. (See Epidemiology 101 for more details.)
This rule is routinely ignored when the subject is second hand smoke.
Facts: In review: The EPA ignored nearly two-thirds of the data. The EPA then doubled their margin of error to come up with their desired results. Even with all this manipulation, the numbers are still far too low to be considered statistically significant.
Fact: Although the EPA declared ETS was a Class A carcinogen with an RR of 1.19, in analysis of other agents they found relative risks of 2.6 and 3.0 insufficient to justify a Group A classification.
Fact: In 1998 Judge William Osteen vacated the study - declaring it null and void after extensively commentating on the shoddy way it was conducted. His decision was 92 pages long.
Fact: Osteen used the term "cherry-picking" to describe he way the EPA selected their data. "First, there is evidence in the record supporting the accusation that EPA "cherry picked" its data. Without criteria for pooling studies into a meta- analysis, the court cannot determine whether the exclusion of studies likely to disprove EPA's a priori hypothesis was coincidence or intentional. Second, EPA's excluding nearly half of the available studies directly conflicts with EPA's purported purpose for analyzing the epidemiological studies and conflicts with EPA's Risk Assessment Guidelines."
Fact: Osteen found other deep flaws in the the EPA's methodology. In his judgment he stated: "The record and EPA's explanations to the court make it clear that using standard methodology, EPA could not produce statistically significant results with its selected studies. Analysis conducted with a .05 significance level and 95% confidence level included relative risks of 1. Accordingly, these results did not confirm EPA's controversial a priori hypothesis. In order to confirm its hypothesis, EPA maintained its standard significance level but lowered the confidence interval to 90%. This allowed EPA to confirm its hypothesis by finding a relative risk of 1.19, albeit a very weak association. EPA's conduct raises several concerns besides whether a relative risk of 1.19 is credible evidence supporting a Group A classification. First, with such a weak showing, if even a fraction of Plaintiffs' allegations regarding study selection or methodology is true, EPA cannot show a statistically significant association between ETS and lung cancer."
Fact: The following is another direct quote from Judge Osteen's decision: "In this case, EPA publicly committed to a conclusion before research had begun; excluded industry by violating the Act's procedural requirements; adjusted established procedure and scientific norms to validate the Agency's public conclusion, and aggressively utilized the Act's authority to disseminate findings to establish a de facto regulatory scheme intended to restrict Plaintiffs, products and to influence public opinion. In conducting the ETS Risk Assessment, disregarded information and made findings on selective information; did not disseminate significant epidemiologic information; deviated from its Risk Assessment Guidelines; failed to disclose important findings and reasoning; and left significant questions without answers. EPA's conduct left substantial holes in the administrative record. While so doing, produced limited evidence, then claimed the weight of the Agency's research evidence demonstrated ETS causes cancer. Gathering all relevant information, researching, and disseminating findings were subordinate to EPA's demonstrating ETS a Group A carcinogen."
Most of the media ignored the judge's decision.
When confronted with this decision, many anti-tobacco activists and organizations harp on the fact that Judge Osteen lives in South Carolina. The obvious implication is that he's influenced by the tobacco industry in his state. It may also be an appeal to the "stupid southerner" stereotype.
Fact: Judge Osteen has a history of siding with the government on tobacco cases.
Fact: In 1997 Judge Osteen ruled the FDA had the authority to regulate tobacco.
So much for his alleged bias.
Fact: Although this study has been thoroughly debunked by science and legally vacated by a federal judge, it is still regularly quoted by government agencies, charity organizations and the anti-smoking movement as if it were legitimate.
Fact: Anyone referring to EPA classifying ETS as a Class A carcinogen is referring to this study.
Opinion: You should seriously question the credibility of anyone who refers to this study, or any of the conclusions that it reached, as if they were facts. That includes everyone who refers to the EPA's ruling that ETS is a Class A Carcinogen. Once they do, every subsequent statement they make should be considered highly suspicious until it is thoroughly verified.
Fact: Most of the information on this page was gleaned from Judge Osteen's 92 page decision, the CRS report, and the EPAs? study.

:

[Sonoma]

Another good copy and paste job! I'll reply at length tomorrow. Right now I'm headed out the door to have supper with my husband and some other nasty smoking fiends. For "dessert", we'll be plotting how to murder more innocent children. Be afraid, qwerty. Be VERY afraid.

[BridgeTroll]

Another good copy and paste job! I'll reply at length tomorrow. Right now I'm headed out the door to have supper with my husband and some other nasty smoking fiends. For "dessert", we'll be plotting how to murder more innocent children. Be afraid, qwerty. Be VERY afraid.

Enjoy your cigarettes. Hope it doesn't rain.

[Ballardguy]

And you have reinforced one of mine... Give a baboon self-righteous rhetoric and he becomes an evangelist.

Given that this comment comes from someone who gets source data from a mime...makes it mean nothing to me.

What's your point Peter....or do you even have one? Believe it or not, I was actually very lukewarm towards 901 - especially didn't like the 25 foot rule. But after reading all the bullshit being spouted off by some of the smokies, I'm glad it's in effect.

Are you really clinging to the belief that SHS has no health implications? Perhaps one of those "magic lung" believers......exhaled smoke is mysteriously purifed! So delusional.

Here's a fact for you. The ban is here and it will never go away in your lifetime - shortened as that may be due to smoking. Spout off all you want, but you will never change that.

[singinbill55]

And why are you clinging to the belief that there are health implications? Just exactly what do you base your belief on?

[Rights]

Is anybody even investigating anyone’s’ links?
I’ve found some really interesting facts and commentary.

It’s really amazing to me that with all the passion that is put into these posts we have yet to come to any kind of agreements, compromises.

Yes, 901 passed, by a landslide. Us ‘smokies’ get that. What I don’t get is why all of us reasonable, intelligent adults can’t come to some kind of compromise concerning all our wants.

Honestly, I’ve been a smoker for a long time. In the past when I was enjoying a smoke and someone sitting near me asked kindly that I extinguish my cigarette because it was bothering him or her, I did, gladly. Why not? They were being nice. My friend hates the smell of cloves, anytime we were around a clove smoker we either moved, or he asked kindly that they put it out. No problem. But, the best of all were smoking sections.
Big Time, my favorite watering hole in Seattle, best beer ever, had a smoking section. Great ventilation, told to me by non-smokers. Taken away. The owner, whom I’ll leave nameless, HATED cigarette smoke, but hated the idea of the ban more. “Not right to owners” he said.

I just don’t get, excuse the cheesiness here, but ‘why we can’t all just get along’

It was never about who’s right or who’s wrong; it was about ‘my way or the highway’

Although there have been many low comments given on this forum, myself a guilty party, we all seem like intelligent people. (Qwerty excused of course :)

Why is it so impossible for us to agree on a way to make things work?

Ballardguy, even you said “Believe it or not, I was actually very lukewarm towards 901 - especially didn't like the 25 foot rule. But after reading all the bullshit being spouted off by some of the smokies, I'm glad it's in effect.”
It’s really sad that you would fall into the childish banter of “I agreed until you were such a jerk” mentality. I’ve been reading your posts since I joined, and you have, for the most part, always had something to say worth reading. Why fall prey to Qwerty’s way of argument?

I just don’t get this. It’s all so obviously about segregation. I know that all the non-smokers are about SHS, but think about it, please, just think about it before preparing your comeback.
Smokers smoke in this bar, non-smokers hang in that bar, and when outside, simply ask of a smoker nicely to step in the direction of the opposite blowing wind.

There must be a way besides a constant argument between otherwise agreeing adults.?.?..?

[Sonoma]

Given that this comment comes from someone who gets source data from a mime...makes it mean nothing to me.
Hmmm. Given that my comments "mean nothing", you have certainly wasted a lot of time trying to make yourself feel superior. And given that you've contributed nothing of any substance...you might as well BE a mime.
What's your point Peter....or do you even have one?
You know exactly what my point is, Shmee...it's your own that's unclear. Even to you.
Believe it or not, I was actually very lukewarm towards 901 - especially didn't like the 25 foot rule. But after reading all the bullshit being spouted off by some of the smokies, I'm glad it's in effect
Is that so? Well, how very mature, "free-thinking" and "progressive" of you to let your mind be changed by bullshit instead of making a point to express your reservations and point out why you didn't like the 25 foot rule. Guess it's just lots easier to fall in line with "I hate the smokies" crowd, huh? Makes you feel like a Big MAN in Ballard?
Are you really clinging to the belief that SHS has no health implications? Perhaps one of those "magic lung" believers......exhaled smoke is mysteriously purifed! So delusional.
Point out where I have said that SHS has NO health implications. Everything has "health implications". Living itself is hazardous to your health. What I HAVE said is that environmental tobacco smoke is no more harmful than thousands of other pollutants human beings are exposed to every day. Some of them you can see and smell, many of them you can't. It is you who have been force-fed the delusion that avoiding ETS will prolong your life or improve your health by even a fraction of a percent.
Here's a fact for you. The ban is here and it will never go away in your lifetime - shortened as that may be due to smoking. Spout off all you want, but you will never change that.
You're in for a shock, oh Big Man In Ballard. You can't begin to imagine what the right kind of "spouting off" can accomplish.

[Sonoma]

Rights (and anyone else whose head isn't .... umm...buried in the sand), you may want to invest in a copy of a book that will answer most of the questions you posed below. Dissecting Anti-Smokers Brains (http://www.antibrains.com/), by Michael J. McFadden. It's an excellent, eye-opening read for both smokers and non-smokers.

[Sonoma]

I just wonder if you even understand most of what you worked so hard to copy and paste. I note that much of it is repetitious, dear. (That means it says the same thing over and over)

To keep this short, let's just stick to the items that concern NON-smokers, shall we? I mean, really, what do you care if people you despise choose "risky behavior" and die a horrible death?

Your major concern seems to be all those SCARY, hard to pronounce chemicals and "cancer-causing agents" contained in the smoke from someone else's lit cigarette.

Hate to tell you this, 'cause I know it will upset you, but unless you live in a sterile bubble, you're exposed to those very same chemicals even in a tobacco-smoke free environment. More terrifying still! While in your bubble, if you eat ANYTHING, you can't avoid ingesting some of those same chemicals.

Love the smell of bread baking or English muffins toasting? Oh-oh, you're inhaling deadly Benzo(a)pyrene. It's found in ALL bread products as well as in coffee and tea. There's Ethyl Carbamate in there too. You really gonna put THAT stuff in your mouth? Benzene is another biggie. Look out Starbucks addicts, it's found in especially high concentrations in coffee and a recent "study" shows that ALL soda pop is LOADED with it.

Don't wanna be stuck inside that bubble all the time, just terrified that someone might exhale cigarette smoke within 25 feet of you? Well sweetie, if you want to avoid carbon monoxide, ammonia, formaldehye, etc., etc., better find a place where there are no motor vehicles of any kind 'cause automotive exhaust contains ALL those things and more in much higher concentrations. Of course, even if you can find such a place, you're STILL at risk if you smell smoke from any other source. (Hint: ALL smoke contains those nasty old chemicals) And of course, if there are no cars, there are probably horses or mules or oxen and you know what THEY smell like.

Oh yeah, you mention Hydrogen Cyanide several times. That really IS a scary one. You can go here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_cyanide) to read about how it is used as a chemical warfare agent. Did you know a form of it was used by the Nazi's to gas Jews? Well, more bad news. You can't totally avoid that one either. Auto exhaust again and anytime there's a fire that burns plastic or if your car has vinyl seats and sits in the hot sun for a few hours. Eeewww. You're breathing HCN (Hydrogen Cyanide).

As for Nicotiana (tobacco plant to you), each one contains about the same amount of HCN as is found in peach and cherry pits or in bitter almond. The primary association of tobacco smoke and HCN is that many chemists keep a lit cigarette in their mouths when working with it since the foul tasting compound it forms when combined with tobacco smoke serves as an early warning of risk from cyanide poisoning. Interesting huh?

I WILL address one of the "risks" to smokers themselves that you parrot: That's the one about sexual impotence. How do you explain the Baby Boom? All those cigarette-smoking GI's who came home from WWII couldn't "get it up"?? All those millions of babies were found under cabbage patches??
As for "decreased blood flow", I don't have a penis since I'm a woman and all my other parts work just fine, thank you. Hasn't ever been a problem for my husband, either - nor for any of the men I enjoyed before him, most of them smokers. And all without Viagra, imagine that!

So qwerty - nice try, but no cigar (so to speak). All you've done is prove my point that this propaganda is everywhere and due to the scientific illiteracy of the masses (which you personally demonstrate SO well), most people accept it as "Truth", without ever bothering to check FACTS.

[Ballardguy]

You're in for a shock, oh Big Man In Ballard. You can't begin to imagine what the right kind of "spouting off" can accomplish.

Well, then, Peter - shock me.

Court case attempts to overturn the ban? Tried and thrown out too many times to count. Have fun.

Legislative appeals? Go for it. Good luck, especially since it overwhelmingly passed by every county in Washington.

Convincing people that second hand smoke is harmless? Good luck to you and your mime. Do you really think your long winded essays about lessons learned in high school are going to convince anyone? Please.

What's your grand plan Peter? All I see so far is alot of blather.

[Sonoma]

... All I see so far is alot of blather.

That's because you're afraid to really SEE anything, Shmee.

[qwerty]

i laugh so freakin hard when the poisoners(smokers) use existing pollution etc as an excuse to pump MORE toxins into the air.

your delusions are not persuasive. REMEMBER no one is asking you to stop smoking. toxic smoke is simply something no sane rational person wants to tolerate - especially since its a recreational activity. youre not on life support, its something you do for fun. its the addicitve chemicals that control your brain and give you an illusion of its urgency.

[Rights]

Qwerty, did you even read it?

I mean seriously, did you even read the FACTS the were written?

Are you seriously just mumbling your lame comments over and over again?

Come on, comment on all the facts that were written.
You are surrounded with toxins right now!!

Is it possible that you might have something intelligent to say?
Come on, dig deep buddy. Come on...strain..those brain cells

[Sonoma]

Doesn't really matter how hard you "freakin'" laugh, qwerty. Won't change facts. Won't make you "sane and rational" either.

And I don't really care whether you're persuaded or not. It's unfortunate, I suppose, that there are so many just like you who have been turned into hateful little bigots spewing your sour vomit into the world.

Little cogs in a big wheel, tiny minds and useful idiots. Good little soldiers such as yourself were the fodder of Nazi Germany too. We understand there's no way to change a closed mind - but we also understand you make a great example and represent a marvelous object lesson. So, you serve OUR purposes too. Gee, think of that. A "double agent". Aren't you proud?

[SPHYNX]

They dont take no shit from the Anti Smoker nazis out there. All you Anti smokers cannot change the way casinos allow smoking and establshments on the rez will tell you too take a hike if you come with all your high and mighty philosophy and your anti smoke brigade is going to get kicked off the rez if you come spoutn all that anti -smoke bs. Kiss our asses Seattle.
We in the country/casinos and reservations do not take your puny new laws and legislation to heart. What was shall always be.Nothins gonna change us for some bitchy city folk who got their panties in a wad about cigarette smoke instead of real issues like your homeless situation in the city,or criminal activity, or how about the pollution from your mouth affecting peoples inherent right to do what the hell they want as long as they don't break the law. Oh yeah, you created the law didn't you? I can't wait till they ban something that you enjoy and you all start freakin out like all these other nut jobs on the posts. Seattle needs to get a grip. Theres alot more crap down the road thats gonna affect your future than a puff of smoke in your lungs. What a bunch of ninnies in this state.

[Rights]

They dont take no shit from the Anti Smoker nazis out there. All you Anti smokers cannot change the way casinos allow smoking and establshments on the rez will tell you too take a hike if you come with all your high and mighty philosophy and anti smoke brigade is going to get kicked off the rez. Kiss our asses Seattle. We in the country/casinos and reservations do not take your puny new laws and legislation to heart. What was shall always be.Nothins gonna change us for some bitchy city folk who got their panties in a wad about cigarette smoke instead of real issues like your homeless situation in the city,or criminal activity, orhow about the pollution from your mouth affecting peoples inherent right to do what the hell they want as long as they don't break the law. Oh yeah you create the laws don't you. I can't wait till they ban something that you enjoy and you all start freakin out like all these other nut jobs on the posts. Seattle needs to get a grip. Theres alot more crap down the road thats gonna affect your future than a puff of smoke in your lungs. What a bunch of ninnies in this state.

There ya go SPHYNX, hitting the hammer on the nail.

Sad thing is, it’s not just Seattle with their fucking panties in a not. It’s spreading all over the country like a bad rash.

Well my friend, at least I know where to go when I can’t take the bullshit and need a fucking break. I’ll come to your side, have a nice Gin & Tonic and toast to the lovely society that I can temporary be a part of :)

[Ballardguy]

That's because you're afraid to really SEE anything, Shmee.

Shmee! I love it! At least you have a sense of humor Pete.

But you didn't answer my question...what are you going to do to do? What's your grand plan to overturn the ban? Talk it to death?

BTW - Sure. Come on over to Ballard. Great place.

[qwerty]

jinkies, I gues thousands of scientists and the tobacco industry are all wrong and youre right about SHS. I applaud your genius. But why stop at this one unbelievable feat of logic? cant you prove that smoking promotes health? wasnt that the tobacco industries claim years ago? there must be some studies you can quote against the consensus of the scientific community. and to the people that say shs is healthy and then compare it to environmental pollutants - you undercut your own arguement.

considering that the Nazis, the real Nazis, gassed thousands of innocent people to death - its a more apt analogy to compare their selfish delusional death trip with that of you smokers that spread poison gas through public.

if you cannot say that all cig smoke is healthy, its completely inane to suggest that somehow its healthy when its second hand. it defies simple logic. if theres a house fire, dont worry about the second hand smoke stand up and breath deep.

[Rights]

Qwerty, I’m surprised at you. You’re usually all over various forums but you have been selfishly sticking to this one.

I even gave you a shout-out on a new Thread I started.

Come on, we miss your ‘wit’ around the other slogs. Don’t you want to ‘cough’ in other places beside just this one?

As far as “can’t you prove that smoking promotes health?” come on my simpleton, is anyone here trying to say that smoking is healthily? Is that your little pea-brain making up stories for you to fester over again? Do you talk back to pea-head? Does he tell you how smart and witty you are?

Ah, somebody DOES love you :)

[Ballardguy]

As far as “can’t you prove that smoking promotes health?” come on my simpleton, is anyone here trying to say that smoking is healthily?

Healthy? No. Are you trying to say that SHS is not harmful? Yes. That is the Peter Pan issue.

The SHS is the most puzzling piece of all this for me. Source quote all the mimes you want, but do you really think you can convince anyone that SHS is really "ok"?? Take it a step further - even if the OVERWHELMING opinion (mimes excluded) against SHS dangers lessened, do you see that as a potential consideration to lift the ban? (oh gee...I thought SHS was worse than that...hmmm...I think the ban is wrong now).

What are smokies trying to accomplish? SmilingBill I gave credit to. He made some definitive efforts towards overturning the ban by contacting Legislative representatives. His focus appeared to be business owner discretion, but even he has now gone back to the SHS issue. Sigh.... I thought you were above that one Bill.

Do any smokies out there believe the ban will ever be overturned? Peter Pan (alias Sonoma) has stated I'm in for a "shock" and can't imagine how much impact "spouting off" can have. Really? Long winded musings about high school teachers is going to overturn the ban? Is that the diabolical plan?

[qwerty]

so... you would agree that smoking is DEADLY? or slightly unhealthy? I suppose you are trying to create a nuanced response to justify your public smoking. the whole "smoking is deadly" but creating a cloud of deadly smoke is healthy arguement is not working.

If you suspect that second hand smoke is healthy, please take this self-test. Answer yes or no.

Strangers seemed to drop hints meant for you, or say things to you
with double meanings? OR
There were strange personal references to you in the newspapers
or on TV or radio? YET Other people found this hard to believe?

Everywhere you went, strangers were spying on you or knew secrets
about you? YET Other people found this hard to believe?

You had a special gift OR
special powers to do things others couldn't do,
or that you were a specially important person?
YET Other people found this hard to believe?

You had cancer, a terrible disease, or something very strange
happening to your body? OR
You were convinced that part(s) of your body looked very wrong?
YET Your doctor said there was nothing medically wrong?

You had god-like, supernatural powers? OR
You were possessed and under the control of supernatural
spirits or demons?
YET Most other people of your religious faith disagreed with this?

You were convinced that your romantic partner was unfaithful?
YET Other people found this hard to believe?

Someone very famous or important secretly loved you?
YET Other people found this hard to believe?

You deserved severe punishment because you had committed
a crime or done something terrible?
YET Other people found this hard to believe?

You were under the control of some power or force,
so that your actions and thoughts were NOT your own?
YET Other people found this hard to believe?

Your private thoughts were being broadcast out loud so that people
could hear them (as if by telepathy)?

Someone or something put strange thoughts directly into your mind
(as if by telepathy)?

Someone or something withdrew or stole thoughts directly out of
your mind (as if by telepathy)?

You heard strange noises, or the voices of people
whispering or talking (when you were completely awake)?
BUT Other people, if they were present, couldn't hear this?

You heard two or more voices talking to each other
(when you were completely awake)?
BUT Other people, if they were present, couldn't hear this?

You heard a voice that kept commenting on what you were doing or
thinking (when you were completely awake)?
BUT Other people, if they were present, couldn't hear this?

You had visions or saw things that other people couldn't see
(when you were completely awake)?

You felt strange sensations in your body, like electric shocks
or the sensation of something crawling on or under your skin
(when you were completely awake)?

You smelled or tasted strange things
(when you were completely awake)?
BUT Other people, if they were present, couldn't smell or taste this?

Your speech was very disorganized because your ideas
were mixed up or illogical?

Your behavior was very disorganized because of your:
Disheveled or bizarre dress
(e.g., wearing multiple overcoats, scarves,
and gloves on a hot day)? OR
Inappropriate childlike silliness
(e.g., acting like a person many years younger than your age)? OR
Inappropriate sexual behavior
(e.g., public masturbation)? OR
Unpredictable or untriggered agitation OR
(e.g., shouting or swearing)?

You were in a trance-like state for hours (or days) at a time
where you:
Were completely unaware of your surroundings? OR
Appeared completely rigid, or resisted all instructions or attempts
to be moved? OR
Developed inappropriate or bizarre postures
(not caused by your medications)? OR
Raced around in a highly excited, purposeless way?

[Sonoma]

Shmee! I love it! At least you have a sense of humor Pete.

But you didn't answer my question...what are you going to do to do? What's your grand plan to overturn the ban? Talk it to death?

BTW - Sure. Come on over to Ballard. Great place.

Most smokers do have a great sense of humor, Shmee. But until you prove you have a mind of your own, we can't let you in on "the grand plan".

I've been to Ballard. Thought it was a pretty neat place full of great people. Bet most of those Ol' Salts are REAL proud of their little pirate boy.

[Ballardguy]

Most smokers do have a great sense of humor, Shmee. But until you prove you have a mind of your own, we can't let you in on "the grand plan".

Oh please. What a cop-out.

Just what I thought. All bluster, no action. So typical.

Admit it - the ban is here and there's not a damn thing you can do about it.

[Sonoma]

...I didn't realize you were a mental patient. I'd never have talked to you the way I did. So, how did YOU score on that test? And how about that electro-shock therapy, is it fun? I've heard SOME people get addicted to it.
Well, run along now - it's time for your meds. There's a good boy.

[Sonoma]

Admit it - the ban is here and there's not a damn thing you can do about it.

Whatever you say. Makes it that much easier if you think I'm "typical".

[BridgeTroll]

Whatever you say. Makes it that much easier if you think I'm "typical".

Ballard's got a point. You brought nothing relevant to the debate. Just a bunch of b.s. science. He calls you Peter Pan, but I think "Smokie Qwerty" may be more appropriate.

You are typical for a smokie here - all bluster, no substance.

[Sonoma]

Let's look at some examples of what you apparently believe fits that criteria.


"Oooh....roughh and tough! What a bunch of blather! LMAO."

"Peter? Is that you? Is it true? Yes! He's alive! Peter Pan is alive!!!!!"

"Absolutely! Smoke away! Just not in public establishments, or I'll kick your ass."

"I for one, am totally convinced despite overwhelming empirical evidence to the contrary."

"Can we please move on to sob stories? W4, where are you?"

"Snort...."

"You crack me up. BTW Peter - You have an awesome home page."

"give an ape a cigarette and he thinks he's a philosopher."

"Enjoy your cigarettes. Hope it doesn't rain."

"Here's a fact for you. The ban is here and it will never go away in your lifetime"

"What's your grand plan Peter?"

"But you didn't answer my question...what are you going to do to do?"

"Do any smokies out there believe the ban will ever be overturned?"

"Admit it - the ban is here and there's not a damn thing you can do about it."

"Just a bunch of b.s. science." (My personal favorite!)

"You are typical for a smokie here - all bluster, no substance."

Nope, sorry boys, can't let you into the war room. You'll just have to keep stewing. Don't forget to keep an eye on the news.

[breather]

Nope, sorry boys, can't let you into the war room. You'll just have to keep stewing. Don't forget to keep an eye on the news.

Again, for any of you who want some entertainment, hack/crash the WA Smokers Alliance at yahoo groups or the Smokies Rebellion link that some bumpkin posted here earlier.

Sonoma, aka Kathleen Leech, one-upped rubes on the site who have "strategized" on how to get the legislature to modify the ban and/or how to get the courts to overturn it.

She wants to, and I swear I'm not making this up, overturn it via the ballot initiative. Never mind the logistics involved in gathering about a quarter of a million signatures to make the ballot. Never mind the $$$ it costs for paid signature gathering (two dollars to three dollars per signature, do the math)
You people just lost a ballot initiative 63% to 37%. You got your saggy, raspy smokie asses kicked. Why do you think the outcome would be any different if we did it again?

Oh, but wait. She realizes that some public education would be necessary first. Gotta enlighten the masses on the revolutionary truths of smokie science. It was at this point that our favorite melon, that fruit in a vegetative state, CANTILOPER!!!, chimed in with his usual advice on just how to educate the public.

Watch the news indeed. Watch it for more states and localities kicking smokies to the curb. Watch it for a couple more bars going into superior court in WA and having a judge deliver a midle school level civics lesson to some nicotine addicted moron. It's happened in Whatcom, Spokane and Thurston counties, with King and Snohomish on deck. Ironically the fly-over counties move faster than the big ones.

[breather]

Nope, sorry boys, can't let you into the war room. You'll just have to keep stewing. Don't forget to keep an eye on the news.

Again, for any of you who want some entertainment, hack/crash the WA Smokers Alliance at yahoo groups or the Smokies Rebellion link that some bumpkin posted here earlier.

Sonoma, aka Kathleen Leech, one-upped rubes on the site who have "strategized" on how to get the legislature to modify the ban and/or how to get the courts to overturn it.

She wants to, and I swear I'm not making this up, overturn it via the ballot initiative. Never mind the logistics involved in gathering about a quarter of a million signatures to make the ballot. Never mind the $$$ it costs for paid signature gathering (two dollars to three dollars per signature, do the math)
You people just lost a ballot initiative 63% to 37%. You got your saggy, raspy smokie asses kicked. Why do you think the outcome would be any different if we did it again?

Oh, but wait. She realizes that some public education would be necessary first. Gotta enlighten the masses on the revolutionary truths of smokie science. It was at this point that our favorite melon, that fruit in a vegetative state, CANTILOPER!!!, chimed in with his usual advice on just how to educate the public.

Watch the news indeed. Watch it for more states and localities kicking smokies to the curb. Watch it for a couple more bars going into superior court in WA and having a judge deliver a midle school level civics lesson to some nicotine addicted moron. It's happened in Whatcom, Spokane and Thurston counties, with King and Snohomish on deck. Ironically the fly-over counties move faster than the big ones.

[Gres05]

Yes, they couldn't stop it from passing the first time...they were the most unorganized smoketards to oppose a statewide ban ever. Honestly, the most notable difference between WA's smoking ban and other bans is the notable lack of any serious opposition.

They are also running out of time, by this time next year the revenue numbers will show that business has increased in the hospitality industry and the legislature will have absolutely no reason to modify the law.

Somehow these people think they are going to be able to get nonsmokers to vote to overturn this law. Even if they could convince us that secondhand smoke wasn't unhealthy, how are they going to convince us that it isn't annoying, doesn't reek, doesn't cling to us and make us have to dry clean our clothes, and that helping smokers smoke is somehow a good thing to do?

The only way to help a smoker is to help them quit smoking. No one is doing a smoker any favors by voting to give them places to kill themselves. If you love and care about a smoker, the very LAST thing you would want to do is help them continue their addiction.

Sadly, many of us nonsmokers have had loved ones taken from us early because of this horrible addiction. One thing that is absolutely proven, smoking bans get lots of smokers to quit smoking. This ban will keep many children from losing a mom or dad way sooner than they should.

It will also keep many kids from starting smoking in the first place.

Very rarely does one law do so much good. Washington voters should be very proud of themselves for passing this initiative into law.

Sorry my thoughts are scattered, long night at work...but one question to sonoma:

Do you seriously think you will be able to change the opinions on nonsmokers who voted for the ban to the point where they will actually show up to the polls in order to overturn the law so that they can again be bothered by your filthy addiction, so that their children will be more likely to smoke themselves, and so that their smokign friends will be less likely to quit- all so some addicted asshole can pollute an entire bar because they are too inconsiderate to step outside for a few minutes?

[Rights]

You think Sonoma hasn’t brought anything relevant to the table BridgeTroll. Can you read dipshit, or are you lost in your little sheep world? What the fuck have you brought to the table other than your mindless banter?

Qwerty, go have tea with your pea-brain buddy. If you need more company, watch your ol’ boy W talk about how he’s slowly stealing you soul.

Gres05, “It will also keep many kids from starting smoking in the first place.” There you go again claming that kids can’t think for themselves. You should go start a “save the children” slog with Maggie2. Drugs are illegal; do you think that stops kids?

Actually breather (aka Eva Braun), what smokies and non-smokies alike (at least the ones who think for themselves, that would be non-sheep to you) can agree on is the fact that this is IS A CIVIL RIGHTS ISSUE. We don’t like being told what we can and can’t do by you Big Brother wanna be fucks. Go blow your “non-nicotine” smoke somewhere else.

Man, the ‘non-smokies’ on these forums sure spout off a lot of shit. You all keep proving the ‘follow the heard’ logic don’t ya?

“The news guys says that I should hates smokies cause they stink, and when I’m outside with all the rest of the poisons plowing through the air, it’s them I should be afraid of, I can’t think for myself, so I believe him.”

“Bush says that it’s ok to tap my phone cause he’s keeping me safe, I can’t think for myself, so I believe him.”

"Billy Sunday said that prohibition is necessary. I can’t think for myself, so I believe him.”

“My friends say it’s cool to drink skinny Mocha Frappuccinos, so that’s what I drink cause I can’t think for myself”

My boyfriend/girlfriend says that I should wear pink flamingo shirts cause they make me look sexy, I can’t think for myself, so I believe em.”

“MTV says that tinny-bobbers are cool. I can’t think for myself, so I believe it.”

Man you sheep are really pitiful.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. One day someone is going to start a law taking away something you like. They’ll say that’s it’s unhealthy, an eye sore, or it affects the children or some other bullshit like that. Then where the fuck will you be. Calling on us ‘smokies’ to save you.

Stay blind you bunch of fools. Stay blind till their taking away your Bud Light, latte, TV, favorite books and anything else that means something to you.

[SPHYNX]

Check this out , is this what we are all heading down the road too---
Texas arresting drunks in bars--
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11965237/

I'll repeat it in writing if you cant link--
Texas has begun sending undercover agents into bars to arrest people for being drunk, a spokeswoman for the Texas Alcoholic and Bevarage commission said on wednsday.

The first sting operation was conducted recently in a Dallas suburb where
agents infiltrated 36 bars and arrested 30 people for public intoxication,said the commissions(Big Brother commin to Washington state)Carolyn Beck.

"Being in a bar does not exempt one from the states laws against public drunkenness." Beck said.

The goal ,she said, was to detain drunks before they leave a bar and go do something dangerous like drive a car.

"We feel that the only way we're going to get at the drunk driving problem
and the problem of people hurting eachother while drunk is by crackdowns like this," she said.

"There are alot of dangerous and stupid things people do while intoxicated, other than get behind the wheel of a car," Beck said. "People walk out into traffic and get run over, people jump off balconies trying to reach a swimming pool and miss."

She said the stings would continue throughout the state.

Oh yeah I can see this state heading down this road. its f@#n unbelievable but its inevitable. We are saturated with people who want to dictate your morals and choices in this state. Blue state my ass. you anti -smoke freaks are barkin up the wrong tree if you think your going to Big Brother me in this existence of of our puny lives.
We are all going out someway or another. What the hell you wanna live to 0ne hundred and 50 anywayfor. You all complain we pay taxes on those who go to hospital with cancer because they smoked. Yeah I guess that sucks.

On the otherhand you live to be 100 and we paying your old ass for years while you on heart machine and some young hospital nurse has to change your shitpan cause you wanted to live a long ass life.
Its people like you Anti-Smokers that drive me to smoke even when I'm tryin to quit. That Texas example is right around the corner people . Wake up.

[Rights]

That Texas example is right around the corner people . Wake up.

Thank you SPHYNX!!!

See here sheep!! Are you finally going to wake up and see the restrictions dancing in your little fuzzy faces!!

You see SPHYNX, the sad thing is that they don’t get it, and wont until there is nothing left and no one to save them.

Oh, and thanks for pointing out the ‘blue state’ thing. I was so frustrated when I moved and got settled into Seattle. I thought that it was a city of freethinkers, open-minded people. Hell no. Most of the people I met were worse than what they claim Floridians to be.

Well, at least in Florida a business owner still has the right to decide whether to allow smoking in his/her own establishment.

Oh yeah, they bitch about health taxes, have they ever seen the taxes on Cigs??

[qwerty]

i wonder if texas has a drunk driving problem.

sorry if laws that restrict irresponsible partying cramp your style. i think you should be able to run red lights too.

i dont know why people want to live long healthy lives... cough cough cough people should line up to let you kill them.... cough

[Rights]

i wonder if texas has a drunk driving problem.

sorry if laws that restrict irresponsible partying cramp your style. i think you should be able to run red lights too.

i dont know why people want to live long healthy lives... cough cough cough people should line up to let you kill them.... cough

Better be careful of what you wish for Qwerty, you may just get it…

[Ballardguy]

On the otherhand you live to be 100 and we paying your old ass for years while you on heart machine and some young hospital nurse has to change your shitpan cause you wanted to live a long ass life.

Just had to read this part twice.....the ban is bad because it might result in people living longer?

As far as the past 9-10 strings...is this getting to be a bit too hostile? You can only interpret so much tone or intent in text words (hostility, jest, anger, amusement, etc....). I never really think this has been a totally objective blog, but it might be tilting too far on the personal level.

I may come off sometimes as borderline hostile, but overall I am greatly amused and do not mean ill intent. While I think "Rights" and "SingingBill" are a bit delusional and "Sonoma" is bit further off the scale of sanity...and Qwerty is well....Qwerty (tone is "jest"), I do not mean them ill intent. It's just that second hand smoke theories that allude to no risk to others is the biggest thing I respond to (bring out the mimes with the magic lungs!).

I'd buy them all a beer and hold their seats while they went out to smoke. And hell, I wouldn't even spit in the beers while they were gone.

[Ballardguy]

TOP TEN RESPONSES TO SMOKIE RHETORIC:



10. "Oooh....rough and tough! What a bunch of blather! LMAO."

9. "Do any smokies out there believe the ban will ever be overturned?"

8. "Admit it - the ban is here and there's not a damn thing you can do about it."

7. "Just a bunch of b.s. science."

6. "I, for one, am totally convinced despite overwhelming empirical evidence to the contrary."

5. "Can we please move on to sob stories? W4, where are you?"

4. "Absolutely! Smoke away! Just not in public establishments, or I'll kick your ass."

3. "Enjoy your cigarettes. Hope it doesn't rain."

2. "Give an ape a cigarette and he thinks he's a philosopher."



And the Number 1 response to Smokie Rhetoric:



1. "Peter? Is that you? Is it true? Yes! He's alive! Peter Pan is alive!!!!!"



Thanks to Sonoma for compiling the information.

[Rights]

I may come off sometimes as borderline hostile, but overall I am greatly amused and do not mean ill intent. While I think "Rights" and "SingingBill" are a bit delusional and "Sonoma" is bit further off the scale of sanity...and Qwerty is well....Qwerty (tone is "jest"), I do not mean them ill intent. It's just that second hand smoke theories that allude to no risk to others is the biggest thing I respond to (bring out the mimes with the magic lungs!).

I'd buy them all a beer and hold their seats while they went out to smoke. And hell, I wouldn't even spit in the beers while they were gone.

Well thanks Ballardguy, I think…

I do appreciate your comments on not intending ill will. Although I feel that being called delusional is un-cool, I respect your opinion whether I agree with it or not.

I too have found this all very amusing. I have even been lacking on my studies because I find my self eagerly awaiting the illogical and childish remarks by the likes of Qwerty.

It saddens me that so few realize the severity of the situation in regards to bans in general.

I must say, as much as I respect and greatly appreciate my fellow ‘smokie’ activists, I have never commented on the SHS situation because, well, I don’t know enough about it and I am not the kind of person to bitch, or throw facts unless I am educated enough to back it. So I really don’t have a stance on that topic.

My arguments have always been about rights, although I know that you (Ballardguy) don’t consider smoking a right, to me it is simply an example of what is forth and coming, as I have stated many times.

This chivalry is almost sad, does this mean the feud may come to an end?

[Sonoma]

One of you smart enough to follow the breadcrumbs! Thanks,"Breather" , for taking time, taking the bait and following up with comment that actually IS relevent... albeit tainted by rude behavior and the usual sarcasm of the sanctimonious.

And Gres05 is at least sincere and (mostly) polite. Actually, Gres, no - I don't expect to change your closed minds at all. I would hope that if YOU truly want to change some "loved" one's mind about smoking that you don't call him or her a "smoketard", though. Not particularly good psychology.

No, I fully expect to be treated to your overblown ridicule and I can handle it since I don't have any problems with self-esteem even though I may (or may not) be a nasty old nicotine "addict". "My side" realizes that the decades-old ATI has done a marvelous job with their carefully planned indoctrination of the masses and it will take at least an equal amount of time to undo this particular damage.

Crusaders realized a long time ago the ONLY way to force "free" people to give up their right to live the lives they chose for themselves was to convince them that their choice somehow "injures others". That fear overrides the caveat that serves to civilize the majority rule process.

This process has worked with other issues too. The "WAR" on Drugs is a prime example. Think about this one, Breather - since marijuana seems to be YOUR drug of choice. Why IS there a prohibition on pot? Because the so-called Drug War has turned users and growers into "criminals" and because the majority of people have been LED to believe that marijuana use is the first step to becoming a hard-core drug addict. Do you believe that's true?

How about abortion? Do you believe it is a woman's right to choose whether or not to nurture a fetus to full term in her own body? Or do you believe the "science" purported to "prove" that as soon as sperm and egg collide, a human being is produced - so the act of abortion is "murder" even when performed in the very earliest stages of pregnancy? Trust me, when someone figures out to rake in big money (and there are some working on it) by making abortion illegal again, that "science" will become "OVERWHELMING" evidence. When greed and the desire for power and control combine forces, the sheep WILL be sheared.

My primary purpose for engaging with you here is to attempt to make you see how destructive your behavior and attitude is. Self-defeating as well, in that you have been turned from thoughtful, intelligent adults into rude, self-righteous bigots. You believe your "victory" legitimizes your hate-filled speech and behavior toward people you consider "inferior".

I will point out (again), that I'm sure you would be justifiably appalled if you overheard someone say "We kicked your saggy, smelly, black asses"; or "Those homeless bumpkins deserve to freeze their asses off"; or "Don't you dare exhale your AIDS-infected breath within 25 feet of me."

Yet your version of "progressive, liberal" thinking allows you to (1) stereotype, (2) marginalize, (3) encourage discrimination, (4) conduct and condone verbal and physical assault against an entire minority.

Does "my side" expect to win your hearts and minds and convince you that "smoking is okay"? Not at all, nor do we need or wish to do that. But when things have begun to degenerate to the point of blatant mistreatment of an entire group, the result is almost always wholesale anarchy. Civility from BOTH sides can prevent that.

One last thing for you to consider. It's something I said earlier that you apparently chose to ignore. Doesn't it seem even the least bit ironic to you that most on this board claim to be a community of free-thinkers and that most opinions expressed here are 180 degrees from what is commonly called the "religious right wing-nuts" and yet on this issue you champion the exact same cause?

Think about it... Oh, and do keep an eye on the news. Remember, what you think you KNOW does not always tell the whole story. If you're as sharp as you believe yourself to be, you'll begin to figure it out. But I suspect you'll never see it coming.

[Sonoma]

"...and "Sonoma" is bit further off the scale of sanity."

"The scale of sanity" hasn't been in balance for a long time, Shmee. You should know that, even if you have problems recognizing what is "dillusional" and what is not. It's not really your fault, I guess.

It IS nice to see that you're not actually as much of a troglodyte as you tried to appear earlier. Maybe there IS hope for the human race after all! (At least in Ballard ;-)

[Rights]

Crusaders realized a long time ago the ONLY way to force "free" people to give up their right to live the lives they chose for themselves was to convince them that their choice somehow "injures others". That fear overrides the caveat that serves to civilize the majority rule process.

This process has worked with other issues too. The "WAR" on Drugs is a prime example. Think about this one, Breather - since marijuana seems to be YOUR drug of choice. Why IS there a prohibition on pot? Because the so-called Drug War has turned users and growers into "criminals" and because the majority of people have been LED to believe that marijuana use is the first step to becoming a hard-core drug addict. Do you believe that's true?

How about abortion? Do you believe it is a woman's right to choose whether or not to nurture a fetus to full term in her own body? Or do you believe the "science" purported to "prove" that as soon as sperm and egg collide, a human being is produced - so the act of abortion is "murder" even when performed in the very earliest stages of pregnancy? Trust me, when someone figures out to rake in big money (and there are some working on it) by making abortion illegal again, that "science" will become "OVERWHELMING" evidence. When greed and the desire for power and control combine forces, the sheep WILL be sheared.

My primary purpose for engaging with you here is to attempt to make you see how destructive your behavior and attitude is. Self-defeating as well, in that you have been turned from thoughtful, intelligent adults into rude, self-righteous bigots. You believe your "victory" legitimizes your hate-filled speech and behavior toward people you consider "inferior".


I wish I could feel relieved, supported, like we stand a chance. But truth be told, I’m scared shitless….

It keeps coming and people don’t see it. We keep getting closer, and although there are great books out there like The Errant Sovereign's Handbook, and awesome writers and activists like Vin Suprynowicz, I still feel lost.

It’s like a volcano has been erupting, and everyone is blind to the lava that is slowly consuming everything.

I feel like I’m yelling in the dark to the deaf and the blind. “Why wont you see, why wont you hear? Why are you waiting until it’s too late…Don’t you know that it has already started? Don’t you see that we are losing everything that makes us free, individual thinkers? Aren’t you afraid that you’ll someday wake up to being simply an image that someone else painted you to be?”

Sonoma, do you have a suggestion of a web site, book, a class, anything that might help?

I feel like this forum is making me loss all faith and forcing me to see that it’s inevitable that we are all fucked.

[Gres05]

Perhaps if you chose to take on a different issue, perhaps repealing the PATRIOT ACT, people would take you more seriously.

As it stands now you are an addict trying to give merit to your addiction by holding it up as the last stand for civil rights which is absolutely rediculous and very offensive to those who face REAL discrimination.

I attended the march this week for immigration, did you? I have taken part in efforts to include LGBT people in anti-discrimination laws, have you?

Do not preach to me about your valiant efforts to protect the rights of all people. I have talked to people with health conditions who can not be exposed to smoke or they have severe respiratory attacks. The right of that person to be able to enter into public establishments withour a risk to their life supercedes your "right" to pollute the air in such an establishment.

Let me make this clear. The Clean Air Act (RCW 70.160) allows smokers into all public places. You are not barred from entering into any bar in the state of WA. You just can't SMOKE in the bar. The law also allows people with asthma and other health problems to enter into the bar as well.

Do you consider it an attack on our civil rights that people are not allowed to walk into a bar and have sex? Bring in their own alcohol? Urinate on public sidewalks? Just to be clear urine is not a significant health hazard, why should we not be able to urinate in the streets simply because it may offend the majority of other people. THESE ARE OUR RIGHTS WE ARE TALKING ABOUT!!! Doesn't anyone get what is at stake?

Get over yourself addict.

[Ballardguy]

"...and "Sonoma" is bit further off the scale of sanity."

"The scale of sanity" hasn't been in balance for a long time, Shmee. You should know that, even if you have problems recognizing what is "dillusional" and what is not. It's not really your fault, I guess.

It IS nice to see that you're not actually as much of a troglodyte as you tried to appear earlier. Maybe there IS hope for the human race after all! (At least in Ballard ;-)

Oh, don't worry. I have no problems recognizing delusion.

[Sonoma]

"Doesn't anyone get what is at stake?"

Obviously you do not. You miss the point entirely by telling me about all your "good works" for those less fortunate than you. Looks like I misjudged your ability to grasp the issue and that's too bad.

However, if I have caused you to feel the need to defend yourself to me, I have at least made you think. That was my only intention.

[Ballardguy]

Well, at least in Florida a business owner still has the right to decide whether to allow smoking in his/her own establishment.

Actually...Florida has a smoking ban. Stand alone bars are one of the few exceptions to it.

[Jimmy Flame]

I'm going out in the hallway of my apartment to smoke to piss off my granola neighbors. I'll be right back!

[Sonoma]

...and any others who feel the same way. I've spent about as much time as I can afford posting here, but I think it's appropriate to leave you with this.

You're not lost, nor are you a loser. That's the way (that conspiratorial) "they" want you to feel. I had several motives for choosing the smoking ban issue as my prime example, and since I did, I will stick to it in my response to you. But it applies to other areas of life as well.

Because you have been made to believe that you are somehow "inadequate" since you have chosen to smoke, you allow anti-smokers to condescend to you and have admitted you will probably respond meekly to them even when their request is out of line. "Not the kind to bitch." "Chivalry is almost sad".

It isn't so much chivalry as it is embarrassment. You have been taught that your decision to smoke is a "weakness" and that you are "stupid" for doing it, so naturally you're not going to take issue with someone you figure is probably right - especially when they also insist your smoke makes them "sick"

The only other option you see open to you is to be a jerk and to threaten to "kick ass" if somebody tries to push you. This reaction is often caused by the same basic feeling as your own, it's just a matter of a different personality and style at work. Both styles are human nature and neither are effective.

You also mention your lack of education on the subject. That's certainly understandable, given today's climate and the continuing attempt to invalidate anything that does not adhere to what has come to be considered "common knowledge". I hope the references I gave you will help in that regard. Make up your own mind about what you find, of course ;-)

Here's another one (http://www.geocities.com/americansall/") that might give you a lift. And the courage to stand up for yourself when necessary. You might want to visit here (http://smokersrebellion.blogspot.com) for more links and ideas as well.

About standing up for yourself: I'll give you a real-life example (that I'm sure the pirate boy will ridicule as just another "long-winded story", but so what - he probably gave up on this post a couple hundred words back) This incident was actually what motivated me to look for a local "yuppie" forum in the first place.

Last weekend, my husband and I took relatives, who were visiting here from England, to an upscale restaurant in Seattle. My husband is British, and a very well-educated professional. His brother and sister-in-law are a physician (Who smokes! Imagine that!) and a teacher. The men hadn't finished their cigarettes by the time we'd parked the car, so the four of us were congregated by the ash receptacle placed near the double doorway from the parking garage.

Two young women, well dressed and attractive, approached the door and my brother-in-law moved to open it for them. One of them looked at him with obvious contempt and said, "That's alright mister. We don't need help from any of you dumb f--k smokers."

My husband stood blocking their way and with his marvelous Sean Connery accent announced. "Excuse me 'ladies', perhaps we should introduce ourselves. This gentleman here is DOCTOR Dumb F--k Smoker and I am The Arrogant British Bastard Dumb F--k Smoker who has no intention of allowing you through this door until you apologize to our lovely companions, neither of whom are dumb in any way, for your inexcusable behavior and filthy mouths."

You should have seen the looks on their faces! And they were thoroughly embarrassed too, since there were several others who heard the whole exchange. They stood there red-faced, then the mouthy one mumbled something that may or may not have been an attempt to "apologize", so the men each stood aside and opened both doors for them. Another couple who were approaching grinned ear to ear and the man gave us a "thumbs up" as he passed.

So you see, there's no need to be rude or belligerent. But there's no reason to put up with that treatment either. Demand to be treated with respect and never hang your head or hide your cigarette or apologize for smoking. Because you aren't doing anything to be ashamed of! Remember that.

The act of smoking is not itself a "right". (Being in this country illegally is not a "right" either and it could certainly be argued that those "illegal aliens" Gres05 is marching to support ARE "injuring others" by being here. Same thing with her "LGBT people", but we won't get into that ;-) But neither does anyone have a "right" to make that choice for you, nor to persecute you for making it. Deny it though they may, that is where the anti-smoking brigades plan to go with this.

"Take your 'smokie asses' OUTSIDE!", and "You can smoke if you WANT to, but don't do it around ME!" is today's smug attitude - I guess you can call that a compromise. But it's become obvious that compromise will NEVER be enough for them. I could compare the effectiveness of that approach to the whining plea that we appease terrorists, "so they won't HATE us"... But I won't.

You have the right ideas and you're headed in the right direction. (guess that's why you call yourself "rights", huh?) There's no one book or website or person that can provide everything you need, but you have a good start. And trust me when I tell you all is NOT lost, no matter what THEY say. Keep your chin up. And spread the good word ;-) Okay?

[Ballardguy]

...and any others who feel the same way...... blah blah blah blah blah...... And trust me when I tell you all is NOT lost, no matter what THEY say. Keep your chin up. And spread the good word ;-) Okay?

Now THAT'S what I have been talking about! Smokie sob stories!

This one had it all.....valiant knights, damsels in distress, evil witches and mingling townsfolk! Even some intrigue...cause I think smoking in parking garages is actually illegal..... No matter!

The plot was a bit one-dimensional, some of the actors appeared to dial this one in (What about the fair damsels? It would have been nice to get more of their perspective...) and like most Peter Pan productions, it ran about 20 minutes too long. Overall though, I give it 2 1/2 stars.

[Jimmy Flame]

Now THAT'S what I have been talking about! Smokie sob stories!

This one had it all.....valiant knights, damsels in distress, evil witches and mingling townsfolk! Even some intrigue...cause I think smoking in parking garages is actually illegal..... No matter!

The plot was a bit one-dimensional, some of the actors appeared to dial this one in (What about the fair damsels? It would have been nice to get more of their perspective...) and like most Peter Pan productions, it ran about 20 minutes too long. Overall though, I give it 2 1/2 stars.

And they lived happily ever after (killing innocent people)...

[Ballardguy]

And they lived happily ever after (killing innocent people)...

Not bad...not bad. I seem to recall you are more of fiction writer...along the lines of what you would do if confronted by someone upset with your smoking. Let's take the next step - share with us a real life experience where you "fought the ban".

[qwerty]

You are a jerk. You are "inadequate." To smoke is a "weakness" and you are "stupid" for doing it. You dumb f--k smokers.

Love,

Qwerty (that conspiratorial) "they"

[Jimmy Flame]

Not bad...not bad. I seem to recall you are more of fiction writer...along the lines of what you would do if confronted by someone upset with your smoking. Let's take the next step - share with us a real life experience where you "fought the ban".

Hmmmmm... I don't recall writing any fiction, but here it goes.

"1:45 am. A Saturday night, about two weeks ago. Johnny, a shaggy haired rocker type with a permanent half smile, took one last sip of his extremely strong Jack and Coke. His eyes, piercing blue. He had the look of determination. It wasn't because he had too much to drink. His peers called him "one drink Johnny". He'd usually stand off in the corner at his favorite watering hole, observing. Admiring the many diffrent people and cultures being represented at any given time. Someone would brush by him, crack a smile or a wink. "Johnny!", they'd continue. "It's good to see you. I love your band!" Being the modest good guy, he'd usually respond with an enthusiastic, "Thanks. Good to see you too!" This night was special. The bar had almost cleared out early. The headlining band was so loud and terrible that even the door guy left. As Johnny set his glass of half melted ice down, he looked the bartender in the eyes as she wiped up the few cubes that had gotten away. His half smile turned into an enormous smile as he reached into his inside pocket, revealing a half pack of Marlboro reds. He reached for a cigarette and before he could even get it to his mouth, *flick*... The bartender offered him a light. They sat down and smoked happily ever after.
-THE END-

[qwerty]

Lung Cancer Is The Most Common Cancer Among Men and Women
It is common knowledge that lung cancer is the most commonly diagnosed cancer in the country. But, did you know that it carries the highest mortality rate? More people die of lung cancer than any other cancer.

154,000 Americans die from lung cancer every year. 90% of lung cancer is caused by cigarette smoking

Lung Cancer Symptoms:
A cough that doesn't go away and gets worse over time
Constant chest pain
Coughing up blood
Shortness of breath, wheezing, or hoarseness
Repeated problems with pneumonia or bronchitis
Swelling of the neck and face
Loss of appetite or weight loss
Fatigue

sexy lung cancer flicks:
http://mesothelioma-lung-cancer.org/lung-cancer-photo.html

[Ballardguy]

Hmmmmm... I don't recall writing any fiction, but here it goes.

"1:45 am. A Saturday night, about two weeks ago. Johnny, a shaggy haired rocker type with a permanent half smile, took one last sip of his extremely strong Jack and Coke. His eyes, piercing blue...... ... The bartender offered him a light. They sat down and smoked happily ever after.
-THE END-

Bombed at the box office. Great title though - "Smokeback Mountain".

[SPHYNX]

Episode 713 - Butt Out
Cast:
Stan
Kyle
Cartman
Kenny
Butt Out!: Pam, Vernon, Kyle, and Randy
Mr. Mackey
Mr. Garrison and Mr. Slave
Principal Victoria
Randy and Sharon Marsh
Sheila Broflovski
Liane Cartman
Rob Reiner and his Smoke Stoppers staff
Big Tobacco Executives, including Kevin Harris
BUDS Man
Bartender
Receptionist
Big Tobacco Factory Workers


[South Park Elementary, gymnasium, day. A school meeting is called and kids file in. Between two basketball backboards hangs a blue banner with the words "BUTT OUT!" The O doubles as a no-smoking symbol. There's plenty of chatter in the gym.]
Mr. Mackey: [off-screen] M'kay, kids, can I have it quiet, please? M'kay? M'kay, quiet now, the assembly's about to start, m'kay. M'kay, quiet ple-m k-m'kay? [Mr. Garrison approaches him, takes the microphone and puts it against one of the massive speakers, creating a loud feedbackk loop. The kids scream in pain as Mr. Garrison returns the mic to Mr. Mackey.] M'kay. Uh, now kids, we have a really fun motivational group today who are gonna talk to you about the dangers of smoking, hm'kay? So please give a very big South Park Cows welcome to, "Butt Out!" [music starts up and a very enthusiatic troupe dashes out from behind the speakers and multi-screen monitor. After some chatter they begin to sing]
Butt Out!: Butt out! Yeah yeah! Kids, that cigarette butt is gross!
Butt out! Uh huh! Smokin's got to go! [the music stops and the troupe members strike poses]
Kyle: [rolls his eyes] Oh no...
Butt Out!: Yeah! All right! Woohoo!!
Butt Out! Lady: Hey students, how are we all feelin' today? Woooo! [not a sound emanates from the student audience]
Butt Out! Man 1: [steps forth] Hey, did you guys know that each year over six hundred thousand people a year die from smoking? A year!
Butt Out! Man 2: [steps forth] Six hundred thousand?? Are you sure you're not just blowing smoke? [the troupe members laugh]
Butt Out! Lady: Blow smoke? Us? No way! Because we don't need to smoke and neither do you, right kids? Butt out! Break it down! [a rap begins. The third male trouper becomes a human beat box.]
Butt Out!: Butt out! Yeah yeah! It's cool to say no!
Butt out! Uh huh! Smokin's got to go!
Butt Out! Man 3: [steps forward and begins his beat box, just a bunch of utterances including] Smoking, no. No smoking. [ends his bit and backs up]
Butt Out! Man 2: Freestyle!
Butt Out! Lady: Vernon! [The first of the Butt Out! males steps forth while the third one resumes his beat box]
Vernon: Don't smoke! Don't ever smoke!
Butt Out!: Kyle! [Vernon steps back into the line, the second But Out! male steps forth]
Kyle: B to the U to the T to the T to the O to the U to the T to the C to the I to the G to the A to the R to the E to the T to the T to the E! Butt out, cigarette!
Kyle: [the boy, as Kyle of Butt Out! raps] Dude, this is unbearable.
Cartman: I'm going to kill myself [return to the rap, which soon ends and Butt Out!'s Kyle goes back in line]
Butt Out!: Randy!
Randy: [steps forth] Smoke you know has got to go. You go, you got to know to say the "no" to the smoke, you go go.. [Stan holds his nose, grimaces and sighs heavily] ... you gotta get it!
Butt Out!: Pam!
Pam: [steps forth and makes like a diesel truck pulling to a stop. In a screeching voice she says] Don's smoke.
Butt Out!: Woohoo! [she goes back into the line]
Cartman: You guys, Kenny's eating his own hands. [Kenny's mittens are against his lips. Stan and Kyle are half asleep]
Kyle: Hey! What's the big deal? I like smoking, and it makes me cool! [turns his hat around so it's on backwards, and strikes a pose]
Pam: Ohoh, really?? Do you think lung cancer is cool, too?? [Kyle strikes a surprised pose]
Randy: What about emphysema?? Is that cool?? [Kyle clasps his hands together]
Vernon: And what about abortion, and AIDS? [Kyle slumps]
Randy: Pfft! That's none's the cool.
Pam: Word.
Vernon: Yeah. So butt out! [Kyle turns his hat back around]
Butt Out!: Butt out! Yeah yeah! Give that cigarette butt a throw!
Stan: Huh, Jesus Christ!
Butt Out!: Butt out! Uh huh! Smokin's got to go!
Vernon: Remember, kids, if you smoke, you could grow up to be a failure.
Pan: Worse yet, you could grow up to be dead. [collapses into Vernon's arms. He stands her up again]
Kyle: So don't believe what those evil tobacco companies tell you!
Randy: Yeah, because if you don't smoke, you can grow up to be-
Butt Out!: [strikes one final pose] Just Like Us. [the boys look at each other, not quite sure what to make of that]

[SPHYNX]

[South Park Elementary, loading area. The boys are there next to a trash bin, smoking ... and coughing]
Stan: Give me a hit. Give me another one, give me another one. [takes a cigarette from Kyle's pack, lights up, and puffs]
Kyle: Aw dude, this is really hard.
Cartman: Oh shit, here comes Mr. Mackey. [the boys quickly turn away and toss the cigarettes and lighter into the trash bin]
Kyle: Throw 'em away! [the boys' faces are red. Kyle glances back] Dudes, here he comes. Guys, stop coughing. [the boys stifle their coughs as Mr. Mackey draws near.]
Mr. Mackey: [stops, then walks around to face the boys] Boys, what are you doing back here? [the boys try their best to keep their coughs in check] I asked you a question: What are you doing back here, 'k?!
Cartman: [in clipped tones] Nothing.
Mr. Mackey: What??
Cartman: Nothin' Na- Due-nothing. [moments later Stan sneezes, and a large amount of snot ends up on his face and jacket]
Kyle: [looks] D'awww sick! [Stan coughs and tries to cover his mouth]
Cartman: Gross dude! [with the stifles broken, the boys resume coughing]
Mr. Mackey: Well hey, if I didn't know any better, I'd think you boys have been smoking!
Cartman: No... No, Mr. Mackey... We don't have any cigarettes.
Mr. Mackey: Well you'd better not! Because let me tell you some'n' about smokin'! [a burst of flame appears in the trash bin] Uh, smokin's bad, m'kay. [the boys look a bit alarmed] And uh, if you start smokin' at an early age, m'kay, ih it's gonna be bad. [the wall behind the bin and one of the posts holding up the awning over the loading dock burst into flame. The boys are getting scared. More of the wall bursts into flames and the flames begin to enter classrooms] M'kay, because uh, smoking can lead to all kinds of health problems like cancer. [the rest of the awning bursts into flames and flames appear at the bottom of the roll-away security door] M'kay, and let me tell you something about cancer, m'kay. Cancer's bad. M'kay, and uh, eh, what? [sniffs] What the? [turns around] Holy shit! M'kay?! [the fire alarm goes off and the school empties out the front door. Mr. Garrison, Mr. Adler, Ms. Choise, and Mr. Slave are all seen]
Mr. Slave: Oh! Jethuth Chritht! [time-lapse a few hours. The school has been gutted by the flames and firefighters clean up. Police are present for crowd control. Mr. Mackey is none too pleased]
Stan: ...Woops.
[The Principal's office ...er, the remains, anyway. Only the door and the desk remain. The bookshelves are burnt up except for the bottom shelf. The cabinets are charred. The desk is charred and two of its legs are burnt off]
Principal Victoria: [seated behind her desk] Well, you boys have certainly done it this time!
Cartman: We're sorry.
Principal Victoria: Not as sorry as you're going to be when your parents get here! Ah, here they come now. [sure enough, their parents can be seen approaching through the ruins]
Kyle: Oh God... [looks down. One of the parents knocks.]
Principal Victoria: Come on in. [Randy opens the door and the parents enter]
Sharon: Stanley, what did you do this time?!
Principal Victoria: You'd better brace yourself, parents. The boys were caught... smoking!
Sheila: Smoking?
Sharon: No, it can't be! My son is not a filthy smoker! [begins to sob. Randy consoles her]
Stan: Mom... [Randy holds her tight] Dad, it was just a-
Randy: I don't have a son!
Liane: Eric, you've done a lot of horrible things in your life, but smoking? You're grounded for three weeks!
Cartman: Three weeks?! Are you fucking kidding me?
Gerald: Haven't you boys heard anything about how harmful smoking is to you and those around you?
Sheila: Of course they haven't, because the tobacco companies have gotten to them first. This is really their fault
Kyle: [seizing the opportunity] Yeah. This is really their fault.
Sheila: No matter how much money the anti-smoking groups spend, the tobacco companies are there to fill our childrens' heads with lies and propaganda that make them wanna smoke.
Cartman: [agreeing] Yeah, huh? [launches into a small demonstration] Ih, it's like the tobacco companies have control of my mind- No. Must. Fight it. Tobacco companies... making me want to smoke. Ah!

Randy: Well, those God-damned tobacco companies aren't gonna have control over MY kid! I say we bring them down!
Sheila: We need the help of the greatest anti-smoking celebrity that ever lived. Rob Reiner.
Kyle: [to Stan] Who's Rob Reiner?
Liane: Oh my goodness, I had no idea. [kneels next to him] Are you okay, sweetie?

[Rob Reiner's Smoke Stoppers, day. A blue skyscraper flanked by two taller blue towers, with the Hollywood sign in the background. Inside, Rob Reiner speaks to four executives, but he's facing the window. He's reading from some papers]
Rob Reiner: [breathless, dabs his forehead] I don't understand it. I pushed a law for higher taxes on cigarettes, I lobbied to get images of cigarettes removed from movies and art, I forced smokers out of bars and parks, but still I get letters from parents saying their kids are doin' it. [puts the papers on the desk, unwraps a triple cheeseburger, starts eating it, and sits down at his desk] Apparently, people still don't understand hwo bad smoking people is for them. Don't they know how dangerous it is to their health? [dabs his forehead] Don't they know the hazard of second-hand smoke?
Executive 1: According to the letter, sir, the town has a tobacco company quite near them.
Rob Reiner: Yeah, that must be it. [dabs his forehead] The tobacco companies, with their millions of dollars and their slick desks and fancy buildings, [the camera pulls out to show the slick desk and fancy building Reiner is in. Reiner dabs his forehead again] they're the ones making music wanna smoke! [dabs his forehead again, opens another triple cheeseburger and begins munching on that] They're the ones hurting our nation's health! I will not stand by and see the children of America corrupted by those bastards! [dabs his forehead] This is war!!

Welcome Rob Reiner
[South Park City Hall, day. People have gathered to greet Reiner when he arrives, and some people have signs saying the same thing as the banner. Other signs say "THANKS ROB!!", "Welcome MEATHEAD!" and "Give 'em hell REINER!" Stan and friends wait by the front door]
Kyle: You guys, maybe we should come clean right now and tell everyone that it wasn't the tobacco companies that made us want to smoke.
Stan: Hwat??
Cartman: Why? It's perfect. If everyone's blaming the tobacco companies, then nobody's blaming us.
Stan: Yeah, what's the problem?
Kyle: Well it's just that, eh, this seems like another one of those times when things are gonna get way out of hands, you know? It's been happening a lot lately. How about this time we just put a stop to it right now?
Cartman: Dumbass, you don't wanna be grounded for three weeks, do you?
Stan: Yeah, don't worry dude. Things aren't gonna get out of hand.
Mr. Garrison: Here he comes! [Two Smoke Stoppers vans and a big rig pull up to City Hall. Rob Reiner follows in a Cadillac, which stops at the walkway leading up to the front door. Reiner opens the door and tries to get out, but he's stuck.]
Rob Reiner: [after a few grunts] Damnit. [struggles some more, but fails to move any] Butter! [the driver glances back] Butter! [the driver exits the car and walks around the front]
Mr. Garrison: What'd he say?
Rob Reiner: Butter!! [the driver arrives with a bucket of butter. Rob Reiner grabs a bunch of it and butters himself up. The driver leaves with the butter as Reiner rubs the last of it agains the seat of his pants. Reiner struggles once more and pops out of the cor, falling to the ground. He stumbles, then rises and stumbles again. This time he stands up and raises his hands in victory. This raises his sweater, and his belly is exposed. He notices this and lowers his sweater. He raises his hands again and his sweater rises. He lowers his hands and walks up to the dais. The mic transmits his breathlessness as he dabs his forehead. His cheeks are rosey from the heat leaving his head] Hello South Park!! [the crowd cheers, the boys look at each other] It is so nice to see an entire town come together to fight for good health! And I'm gonna help ya! [the crowd cheers] These poor innocent children have been seduced into smoking tobacco. So I say, "We fight fire with fire!" We're gonna use these children to bring the tobacco companies down! [someone shoots some confetti in the air and it rains down over everybody]
Kyle: Oh no...
[The town bar. Reiner sits at a booth with the boys, feverishly eating. A waitress comes up with a platter of cheeseburgers and fries.]

[SPHYNX]

http://www.spsciptorium.com/season7/E71script.htm
Rob Reiner: All right kids, here's what we're gonna do. [the waitress replaces a cleared platter with the newly loaded one] We're gonna sneak you into the tobacco company by saying you kids want a tour for a school paper. [begins eating the burgers and dabs his head] Once you're nside, mm, mm, I'm gonna take photos and then we'll publish them, saying that the tobacco company invited you over to seduce you into smoking. Got it?
Cartman: Got it! [Stam and Kyle look at each other]
Kyle: But... isn't that, kind of, lying?
Rob Reiner: Mm. [urp] Uh, we're just leveling out the playing field. [dabs his forehead] The tobacco companies lie to you about the dangers of smoking. If we're gonna take them down, we've gotta lie right back! [begins to sniff around after detecting cigarette smoke, then focuses in on the source. The boys look as well. The source is a man wearing a Buds Light Beer har, enjoying a drink and a smoke at the bar] Oh my God! [coughs loudly, but fails to get the man's attention. He rises from the booth and walks up to the smoker] Excuse me!
BUDS Man: Yes?
Rob Reiner: Would you mind putting that death stick out?!
BUDS Man: But, uh, this is a bar.
Rob Reiner: Isn't smoking illegal in bars here?
Bartender: Not in Colorado
Rob Reiner: Oh my God! What kind of backward hick state is this?!
BUDS Man: Look man, I work fourteen hours a day at the saw mill. I just got off work and I need to relax.
Rob Reiner: Well when I relax I just go to my vacation house in Hawaii!
BUDS Man: [getting irritated] I ain't got a vacation house in Hawaii!
Rob Reiner: Yuh your vacation house in Mexico, then, whatever it is! Look, you are putting my life and these boys' lives in danger by smoking that in here! And I'm not gonna tolerate it! I will end smoking in bars in Colorado! There will be no more smoking here!
[Back at the table...]
Cartman: [impressed] Isn't he awesome, you guys?
Kyle: What??
Cartman: Dude, he just goes around imposing his will on people. He's my idol. [pics up an onion ring and munches on it]
[Big Tobacco Co., day. Reiner and the boys approach the front door.]
Rob Reiner: [turns to face the boys] All right boys, just do what I tell ya and we'll be able to sue this tobacco company for two billion dollars! [pulls out a drumstick from his sack and starts eating it] As soon as we get into the mani facility, I'll snap the photo of you kids, and we can all run out! Think you can handle it?
Cartman: Handle it? For two billion dollars I'd handle my grandpa's balls, sir.
Rob Reiner: Heh, great. [opens the sack and pulls out a costume] Okay, now watch yourselves, kids. These tobacco company people will do anything to get you hooked on smoking. They are liars and they are frauds!
[Big Tobacco Co., headquarters. A door opens and closes.]

Receptionist: Can I help you?
Rob Reiner: [now dressed in the costume he pulled out] Yes. My name is Rita Poon. I called about my boys wanting a tour.
Executive: [enters the scene] Ah, yes, Mrs. Poon. My name's Kevin Harris and I'm the vice president of Big Tobacco.
Rob Reiner: Oh. Hello, Mr. Harris.
Kevin Harris: Well, come on in. [motions the group to a hallway, which they enter] How about a little history first? [stops by a portrait of Indians seated around a campfire] Native Americans were the first to cultivate the tobacco plant. They smoked it in pipes for medicinal and ceremonial purposes.
Rob Reiner: [mutters] Not if I were around, they wouldn't have.
Kevin Harris: Escuse me?
Rob Reiner: Oh, nothing! Please continue.
Kevin Harris: The first successful commercial crop of tobacco was cultivated in Virginia in 1612. [stops by a portrait of Pilgrims harvesting the crop] Within seven years it was one of the country's largest exports.
Kyle: So, tobacco helped to build America.
Kevin Harris: That's right. Over the next few centuries the tobacco business was so great that many slaves were brought from Africa to help work the fields.
Cartman: [strokes his chin] Which means, if it weren't for tobacco, many of our black friends wouldn't be here today.
Kevin Harris: [moves on] And so for centuries, tobacco production flourished. Nobody was even aware of any dangers back then, until, in 1965, [stops at a framed tobacco warning] when Congress passed an act forcing all tobacco companies to put the Surgeon General's warning on their packages. So now, everyone knows the dangers of smoking. And some people still choose to do it, and we believe that's what being an American is all about.
Kyle: That sound perfectly reasonable.
Kevin Harris: And here's our factory at work. [opens the double doors to the factory. The workers begin to sing. Some of them scoop tobacco plants into large tanks. Other collect minced leaves into large wheelbarrows, others keep inventory. They break into song and dance near the end of the song]
Factory workers: With a hidey lidey lidey and a hidey lidey lay
We work and we make cigarettes all hidey lidey day
So folks can get a breaky from their stressful lidey lives
And relaxy with the cigarettes we make all day and night
Young Worker: I like to have a cigarehette every now and then [turns around]
It makes me fee-l calmer when the day is at an end. [hops onto the wheelbarrow and rides away]
Older Worker: And if it gives me cancer when I'm eighty I don't care
Who the hell wants to be ninety anyway?
Factory workers: So with a hidey lidey lidey and a hidey lidey lay
We work and we make cigarettes all hidey lidey day
So folks can get a breaky from their stressful lidey lives
And relaxy with the cigarettes we make all day and night
Kevin Harris: Well, I guess that's the end of our tour.
Rob Reiner: Oh, here boys. Let me get your picture. [the boys turn around and Reiner takes the picture] Got it! Ha! You bastards are going down now!
Kevin Harris: What??
Rob Reiner: I'm not Rita Poon! I'm Rob Reiner! [takes off the wig] And you've just been Reinered! Come on boys, let's make our escape! [makes a dash for the exit. A worker with a cart of cases of cigarettes is gong about his business] Don't you try and stop us! [he smacks the worker, who goes down cold. He runs further on and picks up another worker over his head, then throws him down onto the floor below. The other workers panic]
Kevin Harris: [looks down at the mayhem] Oh my God!

[BridgeTroll]

[url]So now, everyone knows the dangers of smoking. And some people still choose to do it, and we believe that's what being an American is all about.
Kyle: That sound perfectly reasonable.

Uhmmm...this appears to be what your half hour show script boils down to. Who disagrees with this? When will smokies stop trying to equate the smoking ban as the same as not being able to smoke? GO AHEAD AND SMOKE. You can fire up if you want, but no longer in public establishments.

For all the bitching and moaning going on, it still boils down to bars. You can't smoke in same. Too bad.

Why has there been no outcry to have the right to smoke on airplanes?

[Smalan Ithee]

Why has there been no outcry to have the right to smoke on airplanes?Because the smokebone isn't connected to the flybone. It's connected to the drinkbone.

[qwerty]

the smokebone is connected to the deathbone.

[Jimmy Flame]

Bombed at the box office. Great title though - "Smokeback Mountain".
Yeah, we lost so much money on that. We were up against "Lattes and Joints" and some new Clint Eastwood remake.

[Molotov]

For instance, two psychologists, Dale Miller and Rebecca Ratner, asked people to predict how many others would agree to give blood for free or for $15, and people predicted that the monetary incentive would double the rate of blood donation. But when the researchers actually asked people to give blood, they found they were just as willing to do it for nothing as they were for a $15 reward.

The same researchers measured people's attitudes toward smoking bans and asked them to guess the attitudes of others. They found that smokers vastly overestimated the support of nonsmokers for the bans, as did nonsmokers the opposition of smokers to the bans — in other words, neither group was quite as self-interested as the other group believed.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/16/opinion/16gilbert.html?ex=1145419200&en=e3185c40db94db20&ei=5070

[breather]

if you remember the quote (Mark Twain?) about all humor being rooted in sadness.

Here's how far gone our smokies are and here's what happens when you get bumpkins thinking about the law. A quote from the WA Smokies Alliance site, a must crash if ever there was one:

Here is a question, the anti-smokers are a seemingly well funded
group, certainly well orgainized, BUT, exactly where does their money
come from? And who is really behind the organization?

When faced with a problem, and this is a problem, I have found over
the years that it proves worthwhile to go to the root, the original
root source of what ever it is. One is often surpised at what one
finds there, and often it is what one does NOT find there that can be
the key to the solution.

I found a lot of it already in the Disecting the Anti-smokers Brain
book if you haven't read it yet then stop waiting and read it now,
because it is a must read in this war.


Back on track:

I have heard many times that the Anti's have access to government
funds, money that some say comes from the tobacco companies billion
dollar settlement,via our own pockets of course.

So the question is exactly where "do" they get their money?

What I am pondering right now is IF they are getting access to "our"
money, through the government, then we too should have acess to it,
"equal rights" and all that.

I don't know the proper words, root sources, etc. at the moment, but
something in the back of the cob webs keeps nagging me, keeps saying
that there are [legal] provisions somewhere out there,
Federal/State/wherever [private foundations], that equality, equal
time, equal access, equal what ever it is we need, can be had, if we
find the right door to knock on, the right doorway to open, and most
of all that after we enter that doorway we are ready with exactly what
"needs" to be said to open the coffers of help, the magic words that
work to unlock the help chest.

So, anyone got any thoughts, any ideas on this, any answers to the
question?
Just lay them all out there, no matter how wacky or far fetched they
may seem to you, and we'll sort through them and find the good ones.
Hey; remember that this is the country where odd and stranger things
happen from time to time, isn't it?

It has long been said you can find anything on the internet/WWW, so
can we, can we find what we need to fight the ENEMY, using our keyboards?
Are you up for a challenge? How about if I offer a prize for the top
three finds, maybe a nice certificate suitable for framing, with your
name in BIG letters? The big money rewards come later, after we find
the door and unlock the chest. Then we can offer lots of great prizes
for those that need them.

In a previous post it was suggested passing out flyers to those
standing outside of bars and other places. That's a great idea, print
up small ones, giving out this group address maybe? Print them so that
you get several per page, 4, 6, 8? Big enough to read, and small
enough to easily slip into a pocket so it can be found later.

How about a contest for the best flyer that prints out on one page and
is cuttable into 2 to 8 or so portions. Winner gets a nice certificate
printed out by myself.

So my fellow refugees from main stream society what thinkest thou?

Can we wage a war and WIN; or should we just go quietly into the night
and fade away as we vanish into the mist [just like they want us to]?

What is Your choice?

[qwerty]

youre a bunch of losers protesting that you cant stink up bars with your narcotic death drugs. you look pathetic and we pity you becasue you are obviously derranged from your addiction. its only tragic that the general public is forced to share in your folly by your zombified antisocial maladaptionz insistant now youre trying to improve your social pariah status by daiper shitting temper tantrums

[BridgeTroll]

Here is a question, the anti-smokers are a seemingly well funded
group, certainly well orgainized, BUT, exactly where does their money
come from? And who is really behind the organization?

Ok, you win. Our money comes from Mindy Cohn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindy_Cohn). She made a bundle starring as Natalie Green on The Facts of Life during the 1980s'. She is the brainchild behind the anti-smokie movement.

Sorry Mindy, they found us out.

[whowhatwherewhen]

To the "Flacid 4" - QWERTY, Ballard Guy, Breather, and Bridge Troll,
QWERTY, Ballard Guy, Breather, Bridge Troll,

My god men, boys, women, or girls! What poor winners you are! Why does this topic interest you so much? Are your lives so empty as to hang out here every night antagonizing smokers?

Go enjoy the smoke free world. Or are you still staying inside, typing away in forums which do not appreciate you, ALT-TABing back to kiddy porn sites, and telling your mom you'll be out in a while?

Go on outside to play, you've been indoors enough today!

Actually, keep it up! Your side show compliments the passive aggressive smorgasbord of I Anonymous (god bless it, it keeps me coming back).

W4 (as so penned)

[Jimmy Flame]

youre a bunch of losers protesting that you cant stink up bars with your narcotic death drugs. you look pathetic and we pity you becasue you are obviously derranged from your addiction. its only tragic that the general public is forced to share in your folly by your zombified antisocial maladaptionz insistant now youre trying to improve your social pariah status by daiper shitting temper tantrums

Nobody is protesting anything. Your pea brain thinks, "dugh, why?"... People are posting comments on a message board. I wouldn't call that a protest. How is smoking a stogie pathetic? Only the coolest of the cool smoke. Don't you know that? Go back to your bubble you live in and die. I will go now, and help some old ladies cross the street.

[qwerty]

only the stupidest of the stupid smoke. stupid.

you poisonerz poison the air we all have to breath adn you wonder why people are pissed at you. fkkn loser. youre not that stupid are you?

i saw this circus and they had a baby clown smoking a freakin stogie!!! thats what you are. CLOWNS!!! thats how stupid you are.

[BridgeTroll]

To the "Flacid 4" - QWERTY, Ballard Guy, Breather, and Bridge Troll,
QWERTY, Ballard Guy, Breather, Bridge Troll,

My god men, boys, women, or girls! What poor winners you are! Why does this topic interest you so much? Are your lives so empty as to hang out here every night antagonizing smokers?

Go enjoy the smoke free world. Or are you still staying inside, typing away in forums which do not appreciate you, ALT-TABing back to kiddy porn sites, and telling your mom you'll be out in a while?

Go on outside to play, you've been indoors enough today!

Actually, keep it up! Your side show compliments the passive aggressive smorgasbord of I Anonymous (god bless it, it keeps me coming back).

W4 (as so penned)

Personally, I find it more amusing than any show on Comedy Central. I never knew that smokies could be so entertaining. This blog has it all:

Conspiracy Nuts (The Liberals are here! The Liberals are here!).
Rocket Scientists (Second hand smoke is actually good for you. Clears up blemishes).
Angry "Athletes" (I smoke 10 packs a day and run 20 miles! And...I'll kick your ass!).
Monkey Philosophers (Well, you know, I never would have discovered Nietzsche if it wasn't for tobacco).
Revolutionaries (We are the Smokie Alliance of WA. Trouble is coming!).
Sigmund Freuds (you like the ban?? you must be flacid!...and look at kiddy porn...and..and stay inside all day. :). ).

I don't see this as antagonizing smokies. I know lots of them - most of whom roll their eyes at some of the smokie claims being made here. I see it as calling bs on the bizarre claims being made. Good times.

[Jimmy Flame]

only the stupidest of the stupid smoke. stupid.

you poisonerz poison the air we all have to breath adn you wonder why people are pissed at you. fkkn loser. youre not that stupid are you?

i saw this circus and they had a baby clown smoking a freakin stogie!!! thats what you are. CLOWNS!!! thats how stupid you are.

Yep. We're like individual evil little corporations just slinging poison everywhere we go. Watch out! You might catch something hanging around me for too long. BTW- I saw an "I, anonymous" post about the smoking ban. I found it very funny! You should read it too! Watch out for those sandwiches you order buddy!

[qwerty]

dont try to pass off blame on others. if you smoke in public YOURE the evil.

even a brain damaged punching bag like yourself can cypher that.

[Rights]

Both smokies and non-smokies alike.

It finally happened. Our dear friend Qwerty has given me the best signature EVER!!!

Found in a Thread about the Democrats, he actually responded with this.
I had to back up and read it again I was soooooo overjoyed.

Qwerty, thank you. I mean that sincerely. Dealing with your mind numbing, waste of space, idiotic statements have definitely been worth it.

Now, every time I post, or start a thread, anyone who reads it will know that you, not only have the vocabulary of a small child, but also do not harbor the sense to be able to think for yourself and that you will faithfully follow like a sheep as long as someone says something that tickles your little pea-brain.

[Matt]

dont try to pass off blame on others. if you smoke in public YOURE the evil.

even a brain damaged punching bag like yourself can cypher that.Well said. These sissy-ass whiners like Flamer and Rights definitely have some type of damage. Perhaps the corpus callosum. They remind me of that punk bitch named Melle. Full of crap, every one of them.

Hey, listen up, loser smokers: Suck your cancer sticks while you can. The clock is ticking. Fresh air is sweeping the nation.

[Jimmy Flame]

dont try to pass off blame on others. if you smoke in public YOURE the evil.

even a brain damaged punching bag like yourself can cypher that.

Yup. Stinking up the white mans air. So they can live in there condos in Seattle instead of staying in Bellevue or whatever. I'm an easy guy to find, so punch away. I hope you take the bus or ride your bike when you do. Those nasty cars release WAY more toxins then any cigarrete. BTW- I don't blame anyone for anything. But I DO walk down the street smoking away! So, if you see me, say something! But I know you won't because you hide behind computers. Like I said, stinking up the white mans air. I don't give a fuck.

[Jimmy Flame]

Well said. These sissy-ass whiners like Flamer and Rights definitely have some type of damage. Perhaps the corpus callosum. They remind me of that punk bitch named Melle. Full of crap, every one of them.

Hey, listen up, loser smokers: Suck your cancer sticks while you can. The clock is ticking. Fresh air is sweeping the nation.

Same goes for you ya' punk ass bitch. Stop me on the street and say something.

[qwerty]

JIMMY FLAMER!!! YOU ARE THE PERFECT SPOKESPERSON FOR THE TOBACCO INDUSTRY!!! THEY SHOULD SEND YOU TO CONGRESS!!!

I can see you lighting up and blowing smoke in the faces of those political fuckers - YOU DONT LIKE IT!?!!!! POW! POW! POW! and you punch them all out! F yeah! You should call phillip morris - you are the new marlboro man!

either that or you should be locked up and executed. whatever.

[Jimmy Flame]

qwerty (oh so clever), that DOES sound pretty fuckin' funny! But who said I was going to punch anyone? Fuck you.

[qwerty]

if you saw me walking down the sidewalk, you would be too busy shtting your pants to blow cig smoke in my face. *AND* if you slipped on a banana peel and almost tried anything i would kick your ass 1000000 miles and you would land in the pacific ocean and orcas would eat you and youd wake up with satan playing your ribs like a xylaphone fool!

[Gres05]

qwerty (oh so clever), that DOES sound pretty fuckin' funny! But who said I was going to punch anyone? Fuck you.

Guy, one thing you aren't is physically intimidating. I would bet that a good number of the girls in this forum could take you. Not that it is bad to be a wimp in a leather jacket with your own name scrawled on the back, but just own it.

[Jimmy Flame]

Guy, one thing you aren't is physically intimidating. I would bet that a good number of the girls in this forum could take you. Not that it is bad to be a wimp in a leather jacket with your own name scrawled on the back, but just own it.

Never claimed to be. And yes, it's the only jacket I own. It was a silkscreen we made and my jacket was the test. Lets just say, we ended up not using it. I highly doubt that any girls could take me though. I have to wrestle really big dudes a couple times a week. Thanks for the complement though.

[Jimmy Flame]

if you saw me walking down the sidewalk, you would be too busy shtting your pants to blow cig smoke in my face. *AND* if you slipped on a banana peel and almost tried anything i would kick your ass 1000000 miles and you would land in the pacific ocean and orcas would eat you and youd wake up with satan playing your ribs like a xylaphone fool!

So be it. You really got me on that one.

[Matt]

Thanks, all. It's been a great thread. But I've decided that this will be the last post.

Here's the summary:

901 passed. Overwhelmingly. A long time ago. It's a done deal.

Note to nicotine addicts: Wipe your eyes, grow up, stop your incessant immature whining, deal with it, move on, and get over it.

IOW, we kicked your asses.

[Jimmy Flame]

Thanks, all. It's been a great thread. But I've decided that this will be the last post.

Here's the summary:

901 passed. Overwhelmingly. A long time ago. It's a done deal.

Note to nicotine addicts: Wipe your eyes, grow up, stop your incessant immature whining, deal with it, move on, and get over it.

IOW, we kicked your asses.

OK already. You posted this eons ago! Besides I can't wipe my eyes with all this smoke around me!

[Matt]

Read it and weep, smokies:
http://www.katu.com/team2/story.asp?ID=85441

"The crime would include smoking while you are pregnant, smoking around kids inside your home and smoking inside a vehicle with kids inside."

It's about time!

[Jimmy Flame]

It's all about telling people how to live right? I mean, I have no rights as a human to raise a child how I see fit. Besides, who in there right mind these days smokes out there children?

[qwerty]

next they will outlaw burning my daughter with a lit cigarette. freakin nazis

[Jimmy Flame]

Yeah, it's already against the law. Thats called assault, and can be charged as child abuse. If someone burns there kids, they should be drawn and quartered.

[DrOctopu5]

I love this thread.

[qwerty]

If You Smoke In My Area You Are A Child Abuser. And You Deserve The Death Penalty. And Your Voting Rights Taken Away. Sucka

(P.S. AND YOU SHOULD BE DRAWN QUARTERED AND HACKED TO MILLION LITTLE PIECES AND SHAT ON)

[Jimmy Flame]

Being that I've never met you, I've never smoked in "your" area. It'd be "my" area too. Thats the funny thing about humanity. The "area" you refer to isn't "owned" by anyone. Go ahead, and make a post with lots of "quotations" now "QWERTY"

[Matt]

Yeah, it's already against the law. Thats called assault, and can be charged as child abuse. If someone burns there kids, they should be drawn and quartered.You're having a hard time understanding, which we've come to expect. You see, smoking near a child is child abuse and will soon be against the law everywhere.

Hey, Jimmy, do you just post to hear yourself talk? You haven't made a valid point in approximately . . . . well, never.

[singinbill55]

MY GOD QWERTY!!! You haven't actually been allowed to procreate??? God help us!!!

[Jimmy Flame]

You're having a hard time understanding, which we've come to expect. You see, smoking near a child is child abuse and will soon be against the law everywhere.

Hey, Jimmy, do you just post to hear yourself talk? You haven't made a valid point in approximately . . . . well, never.

No, I understand that qwerty is just getting a rise out of the responses. Plenty of people have agreed with me on certain points. Just not you. As for smoking near a child? Thats ridiculous. I don't know of anyone who would do that anyway. Guess what else? I avoid kids too when I'm smoking! Since your such a genius, and you think I have a hard time understanding that I am an adult who can go and die in a war, or from eating red meat, get hit by a drunk driver, smoking, or any of the other "dangers" people face each day... Tell me what is so wrong with partaking in LEGAL activity? And knowing that only I can answer for myself. Does it make you mad that you can't control what I do? Do you want to fuck me or something?

[damstraiht]

You're having a hard time understanding, which we've come to expect. You see, smoking near a child is child abuse and will soon be against the law everywhere.

Hey, Jimmy, do you just post to hear yourself talk? You haven't made a valid point in approximately . . . . well, never.

Define near...5 feet, 10 feet? Considering that second hand smoke dissipates differently under different circumstances I feel the 2nd hand smoke issue has been overplayed.

Hey let's ban cars next cause you know 2nd hand exhaust is bad for children too, but I dont see anyone making a move to ban automobiles...

Considering that vehicles dump legal toxins into the environment on a daily basis maybe all you non-smokers should quit driving too....You're all whining about public health yet you still keep driving

[qwerty]

and your allowed to spank children and and hit them with paddles and motorcycle chains and whatever - i think child abuse is just liberal ghandi conspiracy theory anyways - just like smoking causing cancer and giving cancer to children and anyone i dont like being a sin and stuff like that.

or like the hanford nuke site. they dumped tons of nuke waste into the ground water and no one went to jail.

and like those submarines that kill hundreds of dolphins with sonar blasts - thats not against the law so shut the F up.

i should be allowed to blow asbestos into the faces of baby kittens and hand out fake cigarillos to toddlers to play with. its my life!

its crazy that i can spank my baby for hours without a license but i cant box a kangaroo without a license. put that in your pipe and smoke it!

p.s.

jimmy flame hole - your just a psychokiller that hasnt had the guts to go nuts like a real man. so you run around poisoning people. sissy

[Jimmy Flame]

jimmy flame hole - your just a psychokiller that hasnt had the guts to go nuts like a real man. so you run around poisoning people. sissy

Yup. Poisoning all the white mans air! Wait. I don't even drive a car! I ride the bus fool! Your real funny. Last I checked, most of our air quality issues we have are a result of vehicles and hairspray! So you should shut your mouth now, you are attracting flies.

[qwerty]

if youre smoking at bus stops youre a disease

[Jimmy Flame]

if youre smoking at bus stops youre a disease

Yeah, and if your smoking my cock at bus stops, your a disease I don't mind having. Cocksucker.

[qwerty]

your not satisified with attempting to give people cancer - you have sick sex fantasies bout it.

[Jimmy Flame]

your not satisified with attempting to give people cancer - you have sick sex fantasies bout it.

Wrong again cocksucker. It's not me who gives people cancer. It's the choices they make. Such as living in a city full of cars, or consuming nutra-sweet...etc.. You sound like baby anyway. Speaking of giving people cancer, you really should close your mouth.

[qwerty]

Again we have a smoker that points to carcinogenic elements in the environment as an excuse to add additional toxic carcinogens into the air.
And you toxify the air to get high. The choice you make is not childish it is psychopathic.

You can fantasize about cocks and etc. But you are a psychopath fantasizing about cocks - and that’s not sexy - that is pure evil.

[Jimmy Flame]

Again we have a smoker that points to carcinogenic elements in the environment as an excuse to add additional toxic carcinogens into the air.
And you toxify the air to get high. The choice you make is not childish it is psychopathic.

You can fantasize about cocks and etc. But you are a psychopath fantasizing about cocks - and that’s not sexy - that is pure evil.

Well, nanny nanny boo-boo. Stick your head in doo doo! I'm just telling it how it is cocksucker.

[Matt]

Tell me what is so wrong with partaking in LEGAL activity?Nothing. Just don't smoke around nonsmokers.

Does it make you mad that you can't control what I do?Oh, but I do control you and will continue to do so. I helped pass the initiative which directs when you can and can't engage in a legal (yet stupid) activity. Yes, James, you are under my control.

If you keep talking, I'll make it so you can't smoke in your home. And I'll be the one to come over and personally take the cigs out of your mouth. I'll be the one wearing the "No Smoking" t-shirt and carrying "No Smoking" balloons. You'll think Armaggeddon hit, mofo.

[Rights]

Nothing.
If you keep talking, I'll make it so you can't smoke in your home. And I'll be the one to come over and personally take the cigs out of your mouth. I'll be the one wearing the "No Smoking" t-shirt and carrying "No Smoking" balloons. You'll think Armaggeddon hit, mofo.

All right Big Brother. Keep your 'rule the world' mentality until the day comes that you can't have a beer because fuckers like you brought back prohibition.

It's a sad fucking day when you openly admit to trying to control what someone does in the privacy of his or her own home. You probably support the idea of posting cameras on street corners to watch people in their homes too. Your the kind of sick fuck that voted Bush jr back in office cause your little sheep brain fell for all the fear tactics he's been pushing.

Karma's a bitch dude, and you will one day get your share.

[qwerty]

if you want to live in a primitive outlaw society with no safeguards against cancer causing products good for you. it doesnt add up when smokers want the right to give themselves and others cancer and they want the state to pay for their medical bills.

if people used booze with responsibility there probably would have been no prohibition to begin with. its the drunk drivers, the wife beating no job having peeing in public drunks that fckit it up for everyone (except the bootleggers)

[Jimmy Flame]

Nothing. Just don't smoke around nonsmokers.

Oh, but I do control you and will continue to do so. I helped pass the initiative which directs when you can and can't engage in a legal (yet stupid) activity. Yes, James, you are under my control.

If you keep talking, I'll make it so you can't smoke in your home. And I'll be the one to come over and personally take the cigs out of your mouth. I'll be the one wearing the "No Smoking" t-shirt and carrying "No Smoking" balloons. You'll think Armaggeddon hit, mofo.

I really wish you would. Go ahead on your power trip. Put more energy into those little initiatives. Whatever makes you feel better. And for the last time, NO I WILL NOT SLEEP WITH YOU.

[Jimmy Flame]

Just like the great Rodney King once said. Can't we all just get along?

[Jimmy Flame]

Matt- Forgot to mention... You couldn't come into my "home" because I am homeless. So, as we say on the streets, go fuck yourself? Like, dugh....

[Matt]

Matt- Forgot to mention... You couldn't come into my "home" because I am homeless. So, as we say on the streets, go fuck yourself? Like, dugh....Hi Jimmy!!! Hey, since you don't have a mortgage or lease agreement, perhaps you should move to sunny Hawaii?

Oh wait, bad news:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/kitv/20060504/lo_kitv/3443635
"Hawaii lawmakers have approved one of the strictest smoking bans in the country."

Haaa haaa!!!!!!! Oh, the POWER!!!!!!

Actually, I think it would be funny if we banished all smokers to Molokai, where they used to have the leper colonies. That would be so appropriate. Maybe I should start an initiative to do just that. I bet it would pass with flying colors.

[Jimmy Flame]

Hi Jimmy!!! Hey, since you don't have a mortgage or lease agreement, perhaps you should move to sunny Hawaii?

Oh wait, bad news:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/kitv/20060504/lo_kitv/3443635
"Hawaii lawmakers have approved one of the strictest smoking bans in the country."

Haaa haaa!!!!!!! Oh, the POWER!!!!!!

Actually, I think it would be funny if we banished all smokers to Molokai, where they used to have the leper colonies. That would be so appropriate. Maybe I should start an initiative to do just that. I bet it would pass with flying colors.

You should do that. I'm sure it would pass because you are soooooo charasmatic.