Stop The Smoking Ban!

[esther]

All country Governments should take some action against smoking in public places because smoking is not only hit the smoker it affect who are near by the surrounding and pollution also affected, every one should co operate in this issue otherwise no one control it..

[Jimmy Flame]

With some, it's an unaddressed desire. Every cigarette they drag is a cock they long to suck.

http://www.joesnyc.streetnine.com/pix/chinatown-smoker.jpg
This dude looks totally cool!

[Jimmy Flame]

Maybe he'd suck your cock.
Maybe he'd play with my nuts too!

[Matt]

Maybe he'd play with my nuts too!
"Men who smoke cigarettes run an increased risk of experiencing erectile dysfunction, and the more cigarettes smoked, the greater the risk, according to a study by Tulane University researchers published in the American Journal of Epidemiology."

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-07/tu-pst072707.php

[DrOctopu5]

"Men who smoke cigarettes run an increased risk of experiencing erectile dysfunction, and the more cigarettes smoked, the greater the risk, according to a study by Tulane University researchers published in the American Journal of Epidemiology."

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-07/tu-pst072707.php
I just pounded one out to that picture.

So far so good.

[Matt]

I just pounded one out to that picture. So far so good.DrOctopu5 doth protest too much, methinks.

<end of thread>

[Jimmy Flame]

"Men who smoke cigarettes run an increased risk of experiencing erectile dysfunction, and the more cigarettes smoked, the greater the risk, according to a study by Tulane University researchers published in the American Journal of Epidemiology."

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-07/tu-pst072707.php
Maybe a dysfunction might help! I fuck way too much!!!

[Matt]

"Men who smoke cigarettes run an increased risk of experiencing erectile dysfunction, and the more cigarettes smoked, the greater the risk, according to a study by Tulane University researchers published in the American Journal of Epidemiology."

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-07/tu-pst072707.phpBut wait! There's more awesome news!!!

Los Angeles has just banned smoking in parks!!!!!

Behold the future, you nicotine-addicted pissants!!! Haaa haaaa!!! Oh, lord, I swear if I get any more awesome news like this, my brain will explode into a quadrillion pieces!!!

http://www.ocregister.com/news/smoking-parks-city-1802945-park-angeles

Btw, did I mention that smoking causes erectile dysfunction?

<end of thread>

[Rhode Islander]

Maybe he'd play with my nuts too!

Dare to dream.

[Jimmy Flame]

No smoking in public parks?! Thats great! Now you can work on moving all the un-desireable people back to their own countries! YAY!! Perhaps we can get fat people to stop eating in public too! And poison the homeless population. Yes I can see it! A perfect AmeriKKKa! Where only clean cut white people and all the "other" people (who can behave like clean cut white people) can be in public! WooHoo!! Fuck having a diverse community where people can choose who they associate with. Together we can do this! I just know it!!

[Matt]

Jimmy, this may be of special interest to you:

People with mental illnesses smoke at disproportionately higher rates than the general population (41 percent vs. 17 percent prevalence in Colorado) and are at a higher risk for tobacco related illnesses like respiratory disease, coronary heart disease and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD).
http://www.healthnewsdigest.com/news/Mental_Health_430/Toolkit_Eliminates_Tobacco-Related_Health_Disparities_for_People_with_Mental_ Illnesses.shtml

Btw, did I mention that smoking causes erectile dysfunction?

And cancer. And blindness. And it makes you stink real bad.

I feel sorry for nicotine addicts because they're so stupid.

<end of thread>

[Jimmy Flame]

Jimmy, this may be of special interest to you:

People with mental illnesses smoke at disproportionately higher rates than the general population (41 percent vs. 17 percent prevalence in Colorado) and are at a higher risk for tobacco related illnesses like respiratory disease, coronary heart disease and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD).
http://www.healthnewsdigest.com/news/Mental_Health_430/Toolkit_Eliminates_Tobacco-Related_Health_Disparities_for_People_with_Mental_ Illnesses.shtml

Btw, did I mention that smoking causes erectile dysfunction?

And cancer. And blindness. And it makes you stink real bad.

I feel sorry for nicotine addicts because they're so stupid.

<end of thread>

Yup. And mental diseases are something people don't ask for. Same with cancer. Same with blindness. The "stink real bad" part is relative. You feeling sorry for nicotine addicts was a nice bonus in closing. Oh, and the erectile dysfunction? Thats too bad.

What I'm wondering is, what role do you claim in your crusade? Sarcasm aside, I'd really like to know.

[Matt]

What I'm wondering is, what role do you claim in your crusade?(1) 901 signature gatherer [Accomplished, though I reserve the right to gather signatures for a more restrictive smoking ban in the future.]

(2) Educator -- explaining benefits of 901, explaining how smoking makes your willie wobble (discourages many males), makes you stink (discourages everyone, especially teens, the age at which most start smoking), gives you cancer (discourages everyone), etc etc etc. Oh, and before you claim nannyism -- let me clarify: I don't care about the smoker. You see, by discouraging them from smoking, I reduce the amount of smoking in public, which, in turn, increases my chances of enjoying a smoke-free experience, thus making me happy. It's all about me, mo-fo. [Ongoing]

(3) Black-balloon-carrying ass-kicker [When necessary]

<end of thread>

[Jimmy Flame]

Doubt you are an asskicker. But thats besides the point. Obviously the whole campaign was not about the smoker. If it were, I'd think the initiative would have called for separate smoking rooms and not a ban altogether. Don't jump the gun on anything I might "claim". At least in your words. The only things I've "claimed" are my own opinions, which are exactly what they are. It doesn't matter to me if anyone shares any of my opinions. Thats not why I would form one. It was nice "debating" with everyone. Now don't forget to come see my new band.

Thurs 9/13 at the FUNHOUSE 206 5th ave. N
26,000 Volts
Tuff Luvs (Mississippi) - http://www.myspace.com/tuffluvs
BOOGER SUGAR (JF's new band)
9:30pm, $5

**Get there earlt and get wasted with the band!!**

[Dee Snarl]

BOOGER SUGAR (JF's new band)


Does that mean the Sexxxy Boys are defunct, or what??

[Jimmy Flame]

Just takin' time off and doin' other shit.

[rubber ducky]

Seems smokers rationalize that they chose to sacrifice their senses of smell and taste and shorten their lives 10-15 years rather than admit that they were snookered by tobacco co. propaganda or peers who were, to become addicted to something that stinks so much. Health effects? Minor to 2nd hand smokers compared to that vile foul stench that comes from one renewing their plasma nicotine levels to stave off the nervousness, inability to concentrate, feeling of frustration, headache. and other withdrawal symptoms. I resent being made to smell that stench because of some youths bad decision. Why don't I just vacate wherever anyone decides to relieve their withdrawal symptoms? I don't believe the world belongs to people who like to make the air stink.

[Ecce Homo]

The world doesn't belong to a bunch of whiney over sensitive pussies either.

You have no right to not be offended by other people's actions.

You have no right to go out to any bar you want and expect that bar to cater to your every whim.

Ever heard of personal property rights?

What's next, bad food? Bad art? Bad Music? Bad breath?

[Matt]

We just passed the two-year anniversary of the smoking ban (Initiative 901)! And, look, the sky didn't fall. Bars and restaurants are doing very well. Exceedingly more important, though, is the fact that workers and customers in those locations can now inhale FRESH AIR! Also notice that no one is really whining and complaining anymore about "lost rights." We're all getting used to fresh air and to our clothes NOT reeking. In fact, most smokers LIKE the smoking ban.

It's been a fantastic win-win for everyone!!!!!

So please join me in singing:

Happy Birthday to 901!
Happy Birthday to 901!
Happy Biiiirth-daaay to 9-oh-wuuuh-uuuun!
Happy Birthday to 901!!!!

<end of thread>

[KittenComputerGoddess]

The smoking ban isn't doing ANYTHING. It's not improving health of anyone, even ex-smokers. Of course all those against smoking probably drive, right? Well, funny thing, one auto puts out 100 times the garbage into the air (down from 1000 a few years ago) compared to all the smokers in one city for a lifetime. So ... if you want cleaner air then stop DRIVING, otherwise you are some of the biggest hypocrits in the world.

Do as I say not as I do is not a good way to think or live. Perhaps you need new laws to tell you how to think now since so many non-smokers seem incapable of it.

The the rights side of it, it's private property! How can you justify telling a business owner that just because they want to make money off smokers as well as non-smokers that they are wrong! Also, I hope you own a business soon, so I can smoke on your property and call the cops, guess who gets the ticket, not me. Go back to your band wagon and keep destroying your childrens future, the world will not fall apart when humans die out, but the air polution caused by your autos will make their deaths even more painfull than ours. Lung cancer is still going up, the numbers have not decreased ANYWHERE a smoking ban has been put into effect. But you don't care do you, you just want a minority you CAN attack.

[Mr Sparkly Pants]

I don't believe the world belongs to people who like to make the air stink.

And it doesn't belong to you, either, fuckbucket.

Yeah. I smoked for about 30 years (half of that on again/off again to moderate) and whenever on a break from it, never suffered any of those symptoms. You're talking about a shrinking minority of smokers who are manic about it. You probably know or socilaize with few (if any) of these people, yet it still bugs you. Weird.

And if the occasional instance of smelling tobacco on someone upsets you enough to whine about it, you're probably an asshole.

[Mr Sparkly Pants]

KCG: The smoking ban isn't doing ANYTHING. It's not improving health of anyone, even ex-smokers. Of course all those against smoking probably drive, right? Well, funny thing, one auto puts out 100 times the garbage into the air (down from 1000 a few years ago) compared to all the smokers in one city for a lifetime. So ... if you want cleaner air then stop DRIVING, otherwise you are some of the biggest hypocrits in the world.

------------

MSP: Despite the figures here obviously extracted from your ass, this is a somewhat well-reasoned argument.

------------

Matt: Exceedingly more important, though, is the fact that workers and customers in those locations can now inhale FRESH AIR! Also notice that no one is really whining and complaining anymore about "lost rights." We're all getting used to fresh air and to our clothes NOT reeking. In fact, most smokers LIKE the smoking ban.

-----------

MSP: This former smoker thinks no smoking in bars - especially the bars occupying buildings owned outright by the same people running the bar - is a load of crap. And where's all the "FRESH AIR" you're talking about? The stuff I inhaled this morning on my way to the store was heavy with auto exhaust and wood smoke.

http://burningissues.org/car-www/index.html

But hey, good job on 901, Citizen Matt. Did you know that Washington has a problem with careless emergency room-hoggers not using a mat in their showerstalls and bathtubs? "Hundreds of thousands" are rushed to hospitals every year for opening their foreheads from a fall in the tub. This is an outrage. An initiative is needed to get the authorities into evey bathroom in Washington. We need to stop the overcrowding of our emergency waiting rooms with these preventable injuries.
Can you get on this for us?

[KittenComputerGoddess]

Well, if they can use the same tactic about smoking (1000 deaths per day, really) then why not use it against them. The figures are closer to reality than theirs though, you must admit that.

I also like the question you pose about clean air. I haven't seen clean air in a city my entire life, even in the rural areas there is little clean air. Wish I could find some of it (besides iin the desert).

[Matt]

The smoking ban isn't doing ANYTHING.

That's a false statement. The smoking ban is banning cigarette smoke in public places. That's a huge positive change.

It's not improving health of anyone, even ex-smokers.

That's a false statement. It improves the health of everyone.

The the rights side of it, it's private property! How can you justify telling a business owner that just because they want to make money off smokers as well as non-smokers that they are wrong!

I justify it the same way we justify telling a business owner not to have asbestos in the ceiling, or cockroaches in the rice, or urine in the drinking water. Ditto not having cancer-causing cigarette smoke in the air.

[KittenComputerGoddess]

If you are soooooooo pro health of the public then STOP driving, you are threatening MY health with your car exhaust and my life because you probably obey fewer laws than bus drivers. Take the bus or walk. Otherwise you are one huge hypocrit.

And no, it is NOT improving anyones health. The number of lung cancer patients is STILL rising, yet the number of smokers is still falling. So, one or the other would be lying if you are right,, which means the Health Department is lying. Which is it? If the HD is lying about one of those figures then they have to be lying about other things. Perhaps Asbestos isn't dangerous (you brought it up first). Think, look at the numbers. The primary cause for lung cancer is and never was (at least since we have records of it) linked to smoking as much as they thought. So, what has been inclining in use while lung cancer has been on the rise? Automobiles. So stop killing us and walk, or stop telling the rest of us what is right.

[Matt]

If you are soooooooo pro health of the public then STOP driving, you are threatening MY health with your car exhaust and my life because you probably obey fewer laws than bus drivers. Take the bus or walk. Otherwise you are one huge hypocrit.

Yes, there are many unhealthy things going on in the world. Is your position that people shouldn't work to remove one of those unhealthy things unless they can remove ALL?

Btw, I see you've given up on the "private property" stuff. Excellent. I'm glad I could help educate you about the ability of health departments to enforce basic health requirements, even in private businesses.

Best thing of all? The smoking ban is here to stay!! Bwaaahaaaaa!!!!!

[toasterhedgehog]

If you are soooooooo pro health of the public then STOP driving, you are threatening MY health with your car exhaust and my life because you probably obey fewer laws than bus drivers. Take the bus or walk. Otherwise you are one huge hypocrit.

Do you smoke KCG?

And no, it is NOT improving anyones health. The number of lung cancer patients is STILL rising, yet the number of smokers is still falling. So, one or the other would be lying if you are right,, which means the Health Department is lying. Which is it?

Neither. Smoking raises the risk of cancer for the rest of your lifetime. Your risk decreases to almost normal in about the same ammount of time that you punished your lungs with that poison. Even if you quit, you'll still face an increased risk of cancer. There have been hundreds of studies by a multitude of independant health agencies. You don't magically reduce your cancer risk Unless you know of a giant evil conspiracy to decieve the public regarding how safe cigarettes are?

The next generation will get less cancer from cigarettes. You're right about cars and heavy industry. It's been found that riding a bike in the city you actually undo all of the benefits of the aerobic excercize by breathing in all those toxins. By the time all of the smokers have died out, the persistent industrial toxins in our food air and water will make up for the cancer rates.

It's also about concentration. In a crowded bar with a lot of people smoking, you get a much bigger dose of carcinogens in a shorter time frame than standing next to a road.

If the HD is lying about one of those figures then they have to be lying about other things. Perhaps Asbestos isn't dangerous (you brought it up first). Think, look at the numbers. The primary cause for lung cancer is and never was (at least since we have records of it) linked to smoking as much as they thought.

It's not 'as much as they thought' it's as much as has been proven by real scientists and health proffessionals that have done real studies that were supressed for decades by the tobacco companies. Smoking causes lung cancer. If you don't believe in science, then you're beyond help. If you think these doctors and professors that came up with the health risks of smoking are black hat wearing evildoers, then you're crazy.

Did you know asbestos causes its very own type of cancer? Did you know that when you inhale asbestos, your lungs create an acidic compound to melt it away? Most other impurities you breath do go, but the body has no way to expel asbestos dust. The buildup of acid our lungs create to disolve the asbestos scars our lungs. You don't get a headache or any other symptoms when you breath it. It just slowly causes you to burn your own lungs.

So, what has been inclining in use while lung cancer has been on the rise? Automobiles. So stop killing us and walk, or stop telling the rest of us what is right.

And industry, and mercury in our food, and junk food consumption, and the breakdown of government oversite for product safety.

You can also conserve electricity. Switching to flourescent lights in your home is huge.

From LiveScience.com: "If every American replaced one incandescent light bulb with a flourescent in their home, it would be like taking 1 million cars off the road for 1 year."

[KittenComputerGoddess]

Anti-smokers are still using the same tactics. So, according to everyone against smoking it is okay to be a hypocrit. Alright, I am against breaking the law, so, I'll go blow up a building, since it's okay to not believe in what you expect others to.

[toasterhedgehog]

Why are we anti-smokers? Facts are not tactics.

Smoking gives people cancer. I would like to minimize my chances of getting cancer, and so I would rather not be around smoke. It also doesn't smell good.

Am I oppressing someone that eats nothing but baked beans, haggis, and raw broccoli by not wanting to stand next to them when they can't stop farting? Am I oppressing someone that hasn't washed their clothes or their bodies in six weeks by not wanting to breathe their stink?

It's not anti/pro anything. There's no conspiracy against smokers besides the one the tobacco companies are perpetrating. It's a personal preference.

Smoke your little head off. Just pay more for health insurance, die younger, and go outside.

[KittenComputerGoddess]

The die younger thing had me rolling. Check the statistics again, please, you keep looking the fool on this one.

And yes, the same people who are making the anti-smoking bans are also banning the following:

Trans Fat - Flavor: being replaced with artificial flavoring.
Salt - Flavor/Preservative: being replaced with artificial preservatives.
Real Food: being replaced with artificial food.

Yes, that is really happening. Of course you didn't notice because you got the one ban you wanted, so all happy now? Soon we will be eating grey tasteless paste, and if you don't think so just look at all the 'healthy' foods, they taste like crap.

As for cancer, well, the artificial crap is PROVEN to cause cancer to, so are most of the meds you probably take, but they are pushing those for sales. Why? It's not conspiracy but profit.

You really don't add 2 and 2 on your own, do you?

Also, all the anti-smoking campaigns are funniest of all, it's free advertising for the tobacco companies. They pay for these commercials because their tax write-offs AND they advertise the product to.

"To voice one opinion is to advertise the opposite" or something like that. Every time I see those damn things I start craving and can't stop. Also, because of all the bans they are increasing the cost of techniques to stop, this is good how? I want to stop, simply because I don't like addiction, but I'll die younger when I do, heart attack from stress most likely. Problem is I can't do it right now, and I can't afford the tools to stop, they are more expensive than smoking even in the long run, and their prices go up more when a new ban is put on.

So tell me, WHO benifits from the bans? Not John Doe, not the business owners, think really hard on this, trace the profits and cash flow.

[toasterhedgehog]

holy fucking crap KCG.

I don't know what you're trying to say.

Are you saying that people ban cigarettes for profit? That is fucking idiotic. Follow the profit. Hmmm. Who makes money off of cigarettes? You're a fucking Republican blaming the Weather Channel for global warming. Speaking of Republicans. Cigarette companies give tons of money to the Christian Fascism Party in America.

Trans fats are artificial. Look it up.

You're saying the health food people are conspiring to try convince us that smoking is bad so they can sell us artificial food? By healthy food, do you mean organic food? That unhealthy tasteless organic food? Really?

The die younger thing had me rolling. Check the statistics again, please, you keep looking the fool on this one.

Cigarettes Cut About 10 Years Off Life, 50-Year Study Shows (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61981-2004Jun22.html)

Effect of Smoking on Life Span (http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/9703.php)

I don't keep looking the fool. I keep stating an educated opinion, and you insult me. This goes in line with my theory that you mis-define 'education' as 'what I know' and in doing so prevented yourself from learning anything new. Even the pro-smoking loony sites I looked up aren't bold enough to lie about the life span shortenning effect of smoking cigarettes. They just fudge the numbers so it doesn't look as as bad as it actually is.

[Mr Sparkly Pants]

Matt: That's a false statement. It improves the health of everyone.

-----------

MSP: How does banning smoking in bars improve everyone's health?

Try not to say something anecdotal or speculative.

[Mr Sparkly Pants]

THH: Why are we anti-smokers?

I'm primarily an anti-smoker because everyone hates it and I can't do it anywhere. Socially it is not acceptable, and I'm fairly social. Besides, the kinds I like (AS Yellows, buttless Shermans, du Mauriers Regular, Shepherd's Hotel) are closing in on $10 a pack. It's just dumb to buy cigs if you're going through more than 5 or so a day. That was my average over the course of a week, and some days I didn't smoke.

Of course, there are other benefits to not smoking. My blood pressure kicks ass now, my complexion is a little better, and I never smell like roached cig butt. But mostly I don't smoke now because of the anti-tobacco fascist movement and everyone around me having a fit if I light up.

[Melle]

Hi! I'm new here.

toasterhedgehog: The pharmaceutical industry profits tremendously wherever smoking is banned. For example, after Minnesota passed its ban, "Blue Cross and Blue Shield of Minnesota said that between September and October ... the number of over-the-counter products like the patch and nicotine gum that it provided to members TRIPLED." (my emphasis)
http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/health/12340141.html

That's why the drug co.s spend so much money funding smoking ban efforts (e.g., $99 million from Johnson & Johnson's "Robert Wood Johnson Foundation," which holds $5.4 billion in Nicoderm stock.)
http://www.rwjf.org/pr/product.jsp?ia=143&id=14912

[Mr Sparkly Pants]

Hi! I'm new here.

toasterhedgehog: The pharmaceutical industry profits tremendously wherever smoking is banned. For example, after Minnesota passed its ban, "Blue Cross and Blue Shield of Minnesota said that between September and October ... the number of over-the-counter products like the patch and nicotine gum that it provided to members TRIPLED." (my emphasis) The drug companies aren't giving that stuff to Blue Cross for free, you know.
http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/health/12340141.html

That's why the drug co.s spend so much money funding smoking ban efforts (e.g., $99 million from Johnson & Johnson's "Robert Wood Johnson Foundation," which holds $5.4 billion in Nicoderm stock.)
http://www.rwjf.org/pr/product.jsp?ia=143&id=14912

And if you wanna experience what bullshit are gums and patches, give 'em a try for a while. You'll sooner or later be back to smoking, guarenteed. I got into that crap several years ago when it became available w/out a scrip. Waste a money.

Although I must say, a 4mg Nicorette in the morning after coffee gave me a nice one.

[Melle]

And if you wanna experience what bullshit are gums and patches, give 'em a try for a while. You'll sooner or later be back to smoking, guarenteed. I got into that crap several years ago when it became available w/out a scrip. Waste a money.


Yup. The quit rate for nicotine-replacement products is abysmal.

[KittenComputerGoddess]

They push those stop smoking products like they actually work, while you still remain addicted to the substance anyway, just in a different form.

I tried, but was up to three patches a day (joke), really though I just wanted the cig as much as I did when I smoked, so instead of wasting more money on the product I went back to smoking.

Tried a few medications, those didn't work either, of course the companies that make them don't really care as long as they keep getting money.

Of course you both already pointed that fact out, but, I just think it's funny and should be repeated again and again.

THH, told you so. Of course you'll still deny it, so no point in debating this since you just need to hate some minority, since there are laws protecting all the others (I am protected by them myself) you have to pick smokers and justify the hate by using the propoganda you so willingly soak up.

No one is saying the tobacco companies are good, no one is saying that smoking is good either. What everyone IS saying is that the bans are just as bad and making a bad situation worse, not better.

Now the drug companies are making a killing, I know people who are using the patches in place of cigs because they can get their nicotine still while it's funded by insurance, which also drives everyones insurance rates up. Tobacco companies so willingly put those 'anti'- smoking ads our because it's advertising that the product exists, and to a smoker it enforces our addiction. Glamorization is not the primary reason for smoking, it's an addiction, and it's more addictive than MOST street drugs.

[Matt]

What everyone IS saying is that the bans are just as bad and making a bad situation worse, not better.

I'm not saying that. Therefore it's false to say that everyone is saying that.

Smoking bans reduce carcinogens in public spaces and thus reduce cancer. They also help prevent our clothes from reeking (smokers stink -- bad). They also increase business revenue because new nonsmoking customers make up for the lost smokers. Businesses also save money on ashtrays, cleaning, and ventilation costs. Businesses also have a lower chance of fire. Bans also encourage smokers to stop smoking. The benefits probably add up to the billions of dollars over time.

Oh, one other benefit: They annoy the s**t out of smokers!!!! Which makes Matt very happy. Bwahaaahaaaa!!!!!!!

<end of thread>

[KittenComputerGoddess]

Of course you will deny it, but you just proved you want someone to hate.

First, taking a quote out of context, typical tactic of a hater.

Secondly, reread the posts, all of them, completely. Cigs account for less than 1% (that is the actual statistic if you look it up) of the air pollutants. The air pollutants all cause cancer and smell just as bad, of course no one notices the stink of anything unless they are looking to hate it (autos smell far worse than any other smoke to those of us who grew up in the rural areas) *expecting some redneck joke here*. You just want someone to hate so much you will ignore all facts on the contrary to excuse your hatred.

Just how many people still insist humans have 'races' and justify it by ignoring the science stating the differences are just as cosmetic as hair or eye color. If you just want to hate, fine, but you prove that the bans are only for that purpose each time you ignore the facts opposing it.

[Crow]

I'm not saying that. Therefore it's false to say that everyone is saying that.

Smoking bans reduce carcinogens in public spaces and thus reduce cancer. They also help prevent our clothes from reeking (smokers stink -- bad). They also increase business revenue because new nonsmoking customers make up for the lost smokers. Businesses also save money on ashtrays, cleaning, and ventilation costs. Businesses also have a lower chance of fire. Bans also encourage smokers to stop smoking. The benefits probably add up to the billions of dollars over time.

Oh, one other benefit: They annoy the s**t out of smokers!!!! Which makes Matt very happy. Bwahaaahaaaa!!!!!!!

<end of thread>


Matt, I couldn't agree more. Thank you. Smoking is nasty, period, and it's stupid to try to defend imposing the stench on others as "freedom." There's nothing admirable about tobacco. It makes people sick, weak, and wrinkly, and then it kills them. I see no reason for the public to tolerate it where it will affect non-smokers in any way. Bring on the smoking bans. Celebrate smoking bans. This trend is not turning around.

And personally, I don't want even to have to smell the smoke particles on people, either - wow, the whole Broadway Post Office REEKED yesterday because of one customer. I thought someone was smoking, but it was the bongwater/litterbox smell of ciggie particles clinging to someone's person after the fact. I've had to change seats on our lovely public transportation system because another rider's smoking habit made him stink so much it nauseated me. Don't these people realize they smell bad?

Of course, I do know some lovely people who are smokers, and who manage to smoke moderately and stay ahead of the smell. And I'd like to say that smoking is entirely their business. But personally I hate seeing them becoming wrinkly and prematurely old-looking, weak and wheezy, because of this habit. Some people are having great success with Chantix, and I hope others join them in getting free from tobacco.

[Mr Sparkly Pants]

Matt: Smoking bans reduce carcinogens in public spaces and thus reduce cancer.

MSP: Which published and peer reviewed studies can you cite that conclusively link cancer to the carcinogens released from tobacco smoke in public places? What are the carcinogens in cigarette smoke and what is their concentration and persistence (i.e., how many parts per quantity of liquid or air, and for what duration does it take each of the chemicals, or any combination of chemicals, to produce cancer)? Are these concentrations compared to other toxins and carcinogens in the environment, like dioxins and benzene? High heat smoke from other sources, like wood smoke and car exhaust? I'd like to see at least a couple scholoraly documents that find a *direct link* from the smoke trailing from a cigarette to the stimulation of cancer cells in other people, which places the thousands of other chemicals in the environement as secondary or inconclusive.

Here's the truth: Some people have an obsessive dislike of fat people, or hippie types who wear puchouli and smell like BO. Others freak out over the irritating woman in the office corridor who wears too much cheap perfume, or the guy on the bus who smells like pee. Matt's thing (which is shared by countless other whining assholes) is the passing whif of a cigarette outdoors, or smoke inside a bar. A bar he didn't need to be in, because there were a variety of clubs and all ages music venues where smoking was not permitted, even before 901.

Oh well. Smoking ban fanatics are mostly shrill and uninteresting people.
I'm glad I don't need to be around them much.

[Crow]

Of course you will deny it, but you just proved you want someone to hate.

First, taking a quote out of context, typical tactic of a hater.

Secondly, reread the posts, all of them, completely. Cigs account for less than 1% (that is the actual statistic if you look it up) of the air pollutants. The air pollutants all cause cancer and smell just as bad, of course no one notices the stink of anything unless they are looking to hate it (autos smell far worse than any other smoke to those of us who grew up in the rural areas) *expecting some redneck joke here*. You just want someone to hate so much you will ignore all facts on the contrary to excuse your hatred.

Just how many people still insist humans have 'races' and justify it by ignoring the science stating the differences are just as cosmetic as hair or eye color. If you just want to hate, fine, but you prove that the bans are only for that purpose each time you ignore the facts opposing it.

Wow, this is silly. I'm sorry, no, people who hate cigarette smoke are not "just looking for someone to hate." I think we all have many friends who smoke, and know many cool people who smoke. One of my very favorite philosophers, Jean-Paul Sartre, was known for his unrepentant smoking. And Amy Winehouse... well, let's not go there. But yes, I like lots of people who smoke. I don't hate them. In fact, part of why I want them to stop is that I don't hate them.

Your reply here reminds me of how deep addiction goes. I'm sorry, but this is the voice of addiction, lashing out at anything which would come between you and the substance. I have sympathy for addiction, but the bottom line is that imposing smoke on non-smokers is indefensible. Public smoking is out. I know this makes for some real inconveniences and even hardships for those addicted to cigarette smoke (remember, Jean-Paul Sartre and Amy Winehouse, BOTH LOVELY PEOPLE) but they will simply have to adjust.

[Mr Sparkly Pants]

And personally, I don't want even to have to smell the smoke particles on people, either - wow, the whole Broadway Post Office REEKED yesterday because of one customer.

God, I hate that. It's getting so I won't go anywhere because I might smell something I don't like. I was in a public place just last night (the grocery store men's room) and someone happened to be in a stall taking a dump. I have no idea what creature crawled into this man's colon and died, but I thought I would faint.

Fortunately, I finished peeing before too long and left the public restroom. Looking back on this I must say that in no time at all I had forgotten my paralyzing bad odor experience and got on with my little shopping excursion.

And my life!

[KittenComputerGoddess]

I can't stand how all those people who wear enough perfume or colone to drown a horse in. I have gone into coughing fits from the strangling stench of some fancy perfume so strong no one on the street needed to wear any.

Let's ban that, it's hazardous to our health to. The perfume particles get stuck in your throat and nasal passages, killing off cells as they do. So yeah, perfume is unhealthy, let's ban it ALL.

[Melle]

MSP: ... (i.e., how many parts per quantity of liquid or air, and for what duration does it take each of the chemicals, or any combination of chemicals, to produce cancer)?

I've looked at the science, I've argued about the science, & the science is interesting.

But ultimately I disbelieve in the carcinogenicity of "secondhand smoke" for a very simple reason: Lung cancer was virtually non-existent prior to WWI. At that point people had already been breathing "secondhand smoke" for centuries. The rise in lung cancer has been blamed on the new popularity of cigarettes as opposed to pipes & cigars, and that makes sense---cigarettes are inhaled much more deeply by the smoker---but it only makes sense in the smoker's case; the "secondhand" smoker never changed method of intake.

[Furcifer]

Lung cancer was virtually non-existent prior to WWI. At that point people had already been breathing "secondhand smoke" for centuries. The rise in lung cancer has been blamed on the new popularity of cigarettes as opposed to pipes & cigars, and that makes sense


Something else happened around that same time: inorganic phosphate fertilizers were widely introduced.

Mined phosphorous contains, among other things, radioactive polonium-210, a potent alpha emitter. Smoking puts the stuff in direct contact with live cells, where it can play billiards with DNA.

[Matt]

Cigs account for less than 1% (that is the actual statistic if you look it up) of the air pollutants.

It's your stat; you look it up. Even if true, what's wrong with removing 1% of the air pollutants? Isn't reducing air pollution a good thing, Kitten? That's a yes-or-no question.

That reminds me of my earlier question that you still haven't answered: Is your position that people shouldn't work to remove one air pollutant unless they can remove ALL air pollutants? That's also a yes-or-no question. I look forward to your answers.

[Matt]

Don't these people realize they smell bad?

I don't think they do. Hey, let's ask KittenComputerGoddess.

Kitten, do you realize how bad you reek? Do you realize that people can tell you smoke EVEN WHEN YOU'RE NOT SMOKING? Do you know how they can tell that? It's because you smell. BAD. Your hair reeks. Your clothes reek. Your breath reeks.

Yes or no: Are you aware of this?

Thanks.

[Matt]

But mostly I don't smoke now because of the anti-tobacco fascist movement and everyone around me having a fit if I light up.

You're welcome.

[Matt]

Which published and peer reviewed studies can you cite that conclusively link cancer to the carcinogens released from tobacco smoke in public places?

Please see my earlier 200 posts on this topic. Been there. Done that. If you want to live in denial, knock yourself out. I'm too busy enjoying fresh air and laughing with joy at the permanence of 901 to bother repeating myself for fools.

Matt's thing (which is shared by countless other whining assholes) is the passing whif of a cigarette outdoors, or smoke inside a bar. A bar he didn't need to be in . . .

It's amusing that you think YOU determine which bars I need or don't need to be in. Newsflash: I enter ANY bar I want to. And they will all be smoke-free, thanks to me and my posse. Nothing you can do about it except whine like a baby. Your whines are like music to my ears. Please continue. Bwaaahaaaaa!!!!!!

[Crow]

I've looked at the science, I've argued about the science, & the science is interesting.

But ultimately I disbelieve in the carcinogenicity of "secondhand smoke" for a very simple reason: Lung cancer was virtually non-existent prior to WWI. At that point people had already been breathing "secondhand smoke" for centuries. The rise in lung cancer has been blamed on the new popularity of cigarettes as opposed to pipes & cigars, and that makes sense---cigarettes are inhaled much more deeply by the smoker---but it only makes sense in the smoker's case; the "secondhand" smoker never changed method of intake.


The problem with carcinogens is that they add up. They add up.

So maybe there's something about this post-WW1 world (pollution, stress, hormone disrupters in food) which is making people more susceptible to lung cancer. Add smoke, and the scale is tipped. Cancer, I believe, is all about that tipped scale. And it doesn't take much to tip the scale, sometimes. I believe very much that secondhand smoke does tip that scale, in a world with many new agents of disease at work.

And basically I believe it is my right not to have to breathe someone else's smoke. I think more and more lawmakers are agreeing with that view.

[toasterhedgehog]

Don't mention that Cigarettes were heavilly marketed as a 'stress reducing' medicine to the troops and wives back at home.

R.J. Reynolds had brokered an exclusive agreement with the US Army to get soldiers hooked on cigs during WW1.

People smoked before WW1 but they smoked less. Smokes had been more expensive before the late 1880's due to not being mass produced.

If lung cancer didn't develop after WW1 it's due to marketing during the war.

Also as Furcifer noted, we are not smoking the same cigarettes we were back then.

KCG: I will now return the check written to me by the drug company/health food cabal behind the indoor smoking ban. Or, Give me a fucking break. You equated the ban of trans fats and the health food industry with anti-smoking. I don't see how you can lump them all together. The drug companies may benefit from people trying to quit smoking, but there are enough people that would rather not breathe in second hand smoke on this very thread to put the lie to your conspiracy theory that the drug companies are behind 901.

I'm not taking your posts out of context, I'm responding to them as I understand them. I can't understand what you mean. I have to go with what you actually write.

Being trapped in a stinky building with people is different than being outside. The concentration of smoke in a near airtight space is totally different than them being %1 of all carcinogens.

I totally agree about perfume though. It makes my eyes water. Sometimes strong perfume makes it difficult for me to breathe.

Also, KCG, equating the right of smokers to stink up bars and restaurants with actual civil rights struggles diminishes the real thing.

You are not being oppressed by anybody except the fat white Republicans that own the cigarette companies. They've lied to you, and tricked you into into becoming addicted to the poisons they make. Isn't that reason alone to stop smoking? The cigarette companies give about 85% of their political contributions to the Republican Party. George Bush thanks all you smokers for your support, and are laughing at you all the way to the bank.

But non-smokers are not oppressing you. It's just so nice to be able to go to a club, and not reak afterward. I started out being against the ban cause of the nanny state aspect, but now I just love it. I don't have to wash my jacket every time I go out. My hangovers are less severe. My eyes don't water and ache. No getting burned in the pit anymore.

You have a right to shorten your life, make your clothes and breath smell bad. I have every right not to stink. Go to town.

And I don't hate you KCG. I just disagree with you. You just can't seem to take it without getting hostile.

Oh, and, I smoked a pack a day for about a decade. I started smoking when I was 13. I quit cold turkey. I decide not to be a smoker anymore. All of the tricks and drugs are ways to get you to make that decision. I was miserable for a couple weeks. I just made it through with a hearty 'fuck you!' to the tobacco industry, to cigarettes, and to stinkyness.

People seriously undersestimate the power of 'fuck you.' and you can get it without a prescription.

[Mr Sparkly Pants]

Matt: Please see my earlier 200 posts on this topic. Been there. Done that.

MSP: And proved nothing. There is not in existence a single study with findings that conclusively link passive cigarette smoke exposure to deaths by cancer.

[Mr Sparkly Pants]

Matt to KCG: Is your position that people shouldn't work to remove one air pollutant unless they can remove ALL air pollutants? That's also a yes-or-no question. I look forward to your answers.

MSP responds because KCG is sort of an idiot:
The point is rather, with perhaps hundreds of carcinogens in the ground, air, and water, which of these do you figure are coming from the dilluted smoke of a cigarette, and in what concentrations so as to cause disease and death?

You cannot answer this, and neither can the legions of "health experts" who started the meme of "all tobacco smoke in every form and dose is deadly."

[Mr Sparkly Pants]

**It's amusing that you think YOU determine which bars I need or don't need to be in.**

If it's my building and business, your over-coiffed yuppie ass is in my bar on my good graces. If my house rule says no smoking, no one smokes. If my patrons are welcome to smoke, YOU can leave if you don't like it.
That's the idea, anyway.

**Newsflash: I enter ANY bar I want to.**

No one ever claimed you couldn't, genius.

**And they will all be smoke-free, thanks to me and my posse. Nothing you can do about it except whine like a baby. Your whines are like music to my ears. Please continue. Bwaaahaaaaa!!!!!!**

The sick, vindictive part of me can't wait until the rest of the world finally finds its way into your sterile and predictable existence. Your smoke free bars, Olive Gardens, and Starbucks won't seem like such a big deal once they start getting their roofs blown off.

[Matt]

Matt to KCG: Is your position that people shouldn't work to remove one air pollutant unless they can remove ALL air pollutants? That's also a yes-or-no question. I look forward to your answers.

MSP responds because KCG is sort of an idiot:
The point is rather [goes off on an irrelevant tangent]

Hmmm, no, that's not the point at all. Why did you avoid answering the simple yes-or-no question? The idiot KCG could have avoiding answering just as easily. I also note that you completely ignored the other question. Here it is again. It's very simple: "What's wrong with removing 1% * of the air pollutants? Isn't reducing air pollution a good thing?"

*Pretending that this is an accurate number. We know it's not.

It seems that (correction: it is a fact that) your logic is profoundly stupid. If someone cleaned up all pollution in Green Lake, would you come along and say "You dumbasses!!! What percentage of all pollution did the pollution in Green Lake represent? A billionth of one percent!!??? Meanwhile Lake Michigan remains polluted!! Why waste your time???"

My response would be: "I'm glad Green Lake is clean. If you want to clean Lake Michigan, knock yourself out. Otherwise, say thank you to those who reduced pollution or zip it." Then I would finish by muttering "Moron" under my breath.

Are you beginning to see how retarded you are?

[Matt]

Your smoke free bars, Olive Gardens, and Starbucks won't seem like such a big deal once they start getting their roofs blown off.

Oh? So you want me to get out my black balloons? The balloons that put fear into the hearts of all those who fear black balloons? Is that what you're saying?

Just say the word, mofo.

[Mr Sparkly Pants]

**Hmmm, no, that's not the point at all.**

It's entirely the point. Again, there is no conclusive evidence that any particular amount of exposure to exhaled or passive cigarette smoke is "deadly."

**Here it is again. It's very simple: "What's wrong with removing 1% * of the air pollutants? Isn't reducing air pollution a good thing?"
*Pretending that this is an accurate number. We know it's not.**

Accurate data is of no concern to anti-smoking zealots, and when it becomes convenient, the position shifts to do-gooder, working for the environmental well being of all. The truth is, your campaign is nothing to do with environmental activism, just as it has nothing to do with science, and you couldn't give fuckall about air quality. More truth: Matt believes smoking in all public places should cease, because Matt doesn't like cigarette smoke.

**It seems that (correction: it is a fact that) your logic is profoundly stupid.**

Yet you have no facts to your avail that show that the parts, persistence and concentration of carcinogens in burning tobacco are the primary environmental carcinogens that cause disease and death, over all others in the air, water, food supply, and soil. How many studies on SHS have been done over the last 20 years that prove significant harm from environmental tobacco smoke? I'll give you a hint: Out of about 120, exactly zero.

**If someone cleaned up all pollution in Green Lake, would you come along and say "You dumbasses!!! What percentage of all pollution did the pollution in Green Lake represent? A billionth of one percent!!??? Meanwhile Lake Michigan remains polluted!! Why waste your time???"**

So what vital, immediate benefits, or environmental services does a clean, manmade urban park like Green Lake offer Matt, compared to say, a sustainable and clean water table? More proof that your understanding of environmental issues and priorities is firmly in your ass.

[Smalan Ithee]

Oh? So you want me to get out my black balloons? The balloons that put fear into the hearts of all those who fear black balloons? Is that what you're saying?

Just say the word, mofo.MSP & Melle, you've both made me shoot coffee out of my nose. But this? THIS is some funny shit.

[Matt]

Still waiting for answers to these exceedingly easy questions:

What's wrong with removing 1% of the air pollutants? Isn't reducing air pollution a good thing?

Is your position that people shouldn't work to remove one air pollutant unless they can remove ALL air pollutants?

Anyone? Anyone at all.

[KittenComputerGoddess]

After reading most, but not all, of this thread, that was just fun.

Alright, I will use the same idiotic logic from those who don't like the smell and reverse it, because I actually like the smell of ANYTHING burning. Perfume stinks to me. Because I know most of you will miss the point of that statement as many are incapable of reading between the lines and since no one will actually THINK about what they read (instead they want to take everything literally or as if etched in stone even when it's not). The point being what smells, tastes, or looks good is completely subjective. I grew up with a LOT of BBQ's, and I love smoke, of any sort.

As for getting rid of air pollution, fine, I'll answer your trick question with the exact same type of answer: It's Impossible. The point you missed completely. Getting rid of such a small portion of air pollution like taking a cup of water from a lake, there is no change. Also, air pollution occures naturally anyway.

Then if you are really interested in getting rid of any pollution then stop driving, because if you don't then you are nothing more than a hypocrit. If you enjoy being an evil vile hypocrit that's fine, but making laws to mirror that hypocracy only shows you enjoy telling other people what to do more than actually living a decent life. That being what you are makes me hope you die of the most horrible ailment we have and suffer a VERY long life with it.

[carnivorous chicken]

Also, air pollution occures naturally anyway.

Sorry, not following this post at all really but was struck by this gem. Aside from, I guess, lightning strikes causing forest fires (and that's debatable as to whether that's really pollution), I'm not sure how air pollution occurs naturally. Maybe methane in cow shit? But is that pollution?

Aw... fuck it. Air pollution occurs naturally, so we shouldn't do anything about air pollution caused by humans because we're all "hypocrits."

[Monkeyfist]

Still waiting for answers to these exceedingly easy questions:

What's wrong with removing 1% of the air pollutants? Isn't reducing air pollution a good thing?

Is your position that people shouldn't work to remove one air pollutant unless they can remove ALL air pollutants?

Anyone? Anyone at all.


Does smoking actually cause 1% of the worlds air pollutants? Where are you getting this information from? Do you have the research handy to back this up? Is it from a credible source? Do you own a "No Stank You" t-shirt? And do you think Lee Harvy Oswald acted alone?

[Mr Sparkly Pants]

Still waiting for answers to these exceedingly easy questions:

What's wrong with removing 1% of the air pollutants? Isn't reducing air pollution a good thing?

Is your position that people shouldn't work to remove one air pollutant unless they can remove ALL air pollutants?

Anyone? Anyone at all.

I don't smoke.

And your "questions" have been addressed, idiot.
Don't you have some mall walking to do?

[Matt]

Does smoking actually cause 1% of the worlds air pollutants? Where are you getting this information from?

That stat was from KittenComputerGoddess. She made that claim. I expressed doubt in said stat, then said: "Even if true, what's wrong with removing 1% of the air pollutants? Isn't reducing air pollution a good thing, Kitten? That's a yes-or-no question."

See post #2221 for details. It was one of my better rhetorical flourishes. It completely disabled Kitten's brain (what was left of it). She doesn't understand that she was crushed under the weight of MattLogic, but other readers do understand.

[Matt]

And your "questions" have been addressed, idiot.

Reduced to insults, I see. How telling.

How VERY telling.

Questions remain unanswered. Also very telling.

[KittenComputerGoddess]

Matt, this one is serious, from me that's a stretch. I answered your question, and the person calling you an idiot is right, you are. Not only have I myself answered but so have many, smokers and non-smokers alike.

However since you seem to understand only hard facts and you do not have the ability to see meanings without it being pointed out to you here is the answer in a more blunt way:

If you don't give a fuck about the health of everyone who inhales your car exhaust, perfumes, etc, then why the hell should we care if you don't like the smell of burning tobacco? The question is the answer, think about it this time before you answer and continue to look like a worse fool than I am.

[Crow]

Then if you are really interested in getting rid of any pollution then stop driving, because if you don't then you are nothing more than a hypocrit. If you enjoy being an evil vile hypocrit that's fine, but making laws to mirror that hypocracy only shows you enjoy telling other people what to do more than actually living a decent life. That being what you are makes me hope you die of the most horrible ailment we have and suffer a VERY long life with it.

It's hypocrite, and hypocrisy. Your spelling makes my eyeballs ache.

I am fighting metastatic breast cancer in my spine, near a kidney, and in my lungs. It is horrifically painful, and the treatments for it are nauseating and damaging. I just got back from a second round of radiation today, I'm sick and I'm sore, and I do not know how I am going to get through the next thirteen rounds. And tomorrow I have to go in and go through it again.

I am a non-smoker, but I spent decades of my life in smoky clubs. Punk clubs, nightclubs, dance clubs. And aside from the clubs I spent much of my adult life in the company of partners, friends and associates who smoked, often to excess. I shared housing with them, I spent time with them. I tried to dodge their smoke, but so often it was impossible. I didn't want to seem unsociable or judgmental or fussy, so I put up with it, and figured that since I was pretty healthy otherwise, my body would resist other people's smoke.

I figured wrong.

One little gene, BRCA1, made me unusually susceptible to cancer. Breast cancer has also been linked to cigarette smoke, including passive, 2nd hand smoke. I have no doubt in my mind that my lifetime exposure to other people's tobacco smoke tipped my "odds." Yes, there are other factors, but not many of them. My doctors always assured me I was among their healthier patients, with great lifestyle habits. Except for that little matter of breathing other people's smoke in clubs, restaurants, and social situations.

And the thing about this little gene is... there are a lot of little genes. And no, you probably don't know if you have one. The body is full of surprises.

Cancer is hell. It has destroyed my life, even if I somehow get that rare remission at stage IV. I look quite good for my age, but chemo and radiation have aged me and damaged me. I'm watching friends desert me because some people just cannot handle being around cancer patients. It freaks them out. Do you know what it's like to go through a painful disease like this, and facing the end of one's life, watching longtime friends stop calling, stop inviting you over, and simply stop being around? Physically, mentally, and emotionally, it is hell, and I would not wish cancer on ANYONE.

So what are you doing wishing that those who are simply trying to prevent what I am going through "die of the most horrible ailment we have and suffer a VERY long life with it?" I wouldn't wish that on you, and you're defending the stuff that most likely contributed to my current suffering, pain, and impending death. Is smoking in a club really THAT important to you?

I worry sometimes about being so deeply dependent on the life-giving opioid painkillers I must take daily. I would much prefer not to be dependent on any drug. But then I read something like this, some otherwise decent person frothing about how "vile and evil" anyone is for trying to protect non-smokers. Someone saying things in defense of her drug that no sane person would say. And I can see that you have a bigger monkey digging into your back than I do. If I live to taper off what I'm taking, I hope I don't spew anything as nasty as you did here, while I'm sweating it out. See, behaving in a way that's unlike myself, to protect my use of a drug, that would be true ADDICTION, as opposed to profound DEPENDENCY. And all I can say is, don't let it take your soul.

[KittenComputerGoddess]

Wow, what a coincedence, your assuming it WAS cigarettes that caused it makes my eyes ache to. What of the majority of people who have lung cancer that have never been near smoke from tobacco? If cigs are the primary cause then why is it that most people with any cancer at all have never been near it?

You still fail to see the entire point, and that is why you will always look for a minority group to blame, like so many. I see no difference in this than the KKK blaming black people for all the crime, or the xtians blaming athiests and pagans for all the hatred. Also, I already admitted to being bad at spelling, the fact that you have to nitpick about that shows you don't even really care about facts, just looking for an excuse to insult someone.

[Melle]

Wow, what a coincedence, your assuming it WAS cigarettes that caused it makes my eyes ache to. What of the majority of people who have lung cancer that have never been near smoke from tobacco? If cigs are the primary cause then why is it that most people with any cancer at all have never been near it?

You still fail to see the entire point, and that is why you will always look for a minority group to blame, like so many. I see no difference in this than the KKK blaming black people for all the crime, or the xtians blaming athiests and pagans for all the hatred. Also, I already admitted to being bad at spelling, the fact that you have to nitpick about that shows you don't even really care about facts, just looking for an excuse to insult someone.

KCG, you are out of your fucking mind.

[Crow]

LOL. Smokers are not a "minority group." Wow. Yes, they may be in the minority, but this does not make them an oppressed minority GROUP.

[KittenComputerGoddess]

Melle, there are several schools of thought on that, and most agree with you, even the doctors.

Here's the other point, if I wasn't burning cigs I would be burning other things. Most smokers are NOT pyros, but there are some people who just enjoy the smell of smoke, any smoke.

But if you enjoy attacking minorities, then you are no better than the other hate groups. You just got a legal excuse to.

Here's another tiny bit of info that most people ignore. A lot of us would stop smoking because we don't like the ball and chain. However, in the long run it is still cheaper to smoke than to pay the outragous prices for a substitute form of nicotine, all they do is change the form of addiction. But, you all still agree to paying for junkies to go to rehab clinics, while if a cig smoker goes willingly WE have to pay a fortune just for thirty days (yes some of us would require that much time while others maybe only three days or a week). But again, you just want a minority to hate so you try to make it illegal to smoke without giving anyone any way to stop.

Now you know why I hate anti-smokers.

[KittenComputerGoddess]

And why aren't they a minority group Crow?

No matter how you answer you will still appear as a hater. Nice how the tables can turn quickly. Junkies are considered a minority group, and if us smokers are addicts then we get their rights to, but we don't. Instead we get attacked. If it's a lifestyle choice and not an addiction then it's no different than being gay or dressing different. No matter how you answer ....

[Melle]

KCG, the reason you are out of your mind is that this woman just gave you an honest and TOTALLY UNDERSTANDABLE---to say the least---account of why she, personally, is vehemently anti-smoking.

You respond by comparing her to the KKK.

You're being a complete ass.

(If you haven't noticed, I am "on your side," as they say, so you can quit preaching to me.)

[KittenComputerGoddess]

Melle, everyone has problems. I know a LOT of women who have the same problems if not worse (they don't smoke or go near smoke) but have been left on the streets. So excuse me if someone complaining about some illness doesn't pull my heart strings. But that is all starying from the topic so I didn't originally post it, guess I should have, but honestly don't care tonight.

[Melle]

Melle, everyone has problems. I know a LOT of women who have the same problems if not worse (they don't smoke or go near smoke) but have been left on the streets. So excuse me if someone complaining about some illness doesn't pull my heart strings. But that is all starying from the topic so I didn't originally post it, guess I should have, but honestly don't care tonight.

Bye, creep.

[KittenComputerGoddess]

Hmm ... an insult, how ... original. Either you didn't grasp the size of the problem or you just pretend to care so you don't look bad.

The really messed up thing is I know you will still read this. However here's the thing yo miss completely, the thread they were posting on and the focus of their message was to attack smokers, if not then it was whining. Otherwise posting that whole story on here was just a waste. Another thread and perhaps a little sympathy from others, and I wouldn't have responded at all because I don't care.

Nah, I would have done the same damn thing because I'm an asshole. I am the lowest, creepiest, most insecure asshole that all I can do is try to asshole my way through life. It hasn't ever worked, but I think this time it will be different. Maybe I should apologize; it would be no skin of my nose. But I'm such a stupid, careless asshole that I just can't do it. Next to me, George W. Bush is a fountain of human warmth.

[carnivorous chicken]

OK, I finally get it, KCG is fucking brilliant. You can't argue with brilliance. Really, it might be a better strategy to stop arguing, as in "deafening silence." Although I will admit to being entertained as well as experiencing the "gazing at a car crash" phenomenon.

[Mr Sparkly Pants]

Melle, everyone has problems. I know a LOT of women who have the same problems if not worse (they don't smoke or go near smoke) but have been left on the streets. So excuse me if someone complaining about some illness doesn't pull my heart strings. But that is all starying from the topic so I didn't originally post it, guess I should have, but honestly don't care tonight.

Thanks for the brutal honesty.

Please go now and brutally fuck yourself.

Thanks in advance.

[Abulafia]

I take back every previous pledge I'd made not to destroy KCG.

I wanted to meet Crow tonight. She didn't make it because she is deathly ill. You, you little fucking shit, make fun of this.

Gloves off. I don't care who you are or where you live or what school failed you. You will be slammed against the wall of my rhetoric until you apologize for your massive, thoughtless, hateful stupidity.

You little bitch. Start posting. And if your next post is anything but "I am sorry; that was wrong," brace yourself.

Edited because as lame as "the wall of my rhetoric" sounded last night when I wrote it after a coupl'a scotches, this morning it's so bad I'm cracking up at myself.

I'd edit it, but it's too funny. "Wall of my rhetoric." Is that a band name?

Wall of Rhetoric. Thursday, at the High Dive.

What I would say rather is this: Apologize, or I will make an Extra Special Blossom effort to make you look stupider than you ever thought possible. I've held back now, and it's been tough. But now I have a little free time, and you've proven yourself utterly despicable, so forget it. I'm also going to make a lot of fun of you.

Alternatively, I might put you on Ignore. We all might. We all might simply effectively shut you out of our discourse here. We could of course read your posts and simply not respond. But wouldn't it be that much worse for you to realize that you have so debased yourself that we have all decided you simply aren't even worth reading?

You're close.

Apologize. Think about what you have done, and apologize.

—Wall of Rhetoric.

Tee hee.

[toasterhedgehog]

KCG you said what you said in the heat of the moment. You're so defensive you can't think straight. There is no definition of 'enlightened' that is as devoid of compassion for fellow human beings as you have been in recent posts.

Please try to understand why everyone is so angry at you right now.

[Meat Weapon]

Yeah, you know what, KCG? You arrive in this house all blustery about junkies and alcoholics, and it turns out you aren't fit to eat their vomit.

It's time for you to reveal some humanity or get the fuck out. Around here we get monsters of a much higher caliber than you pretty regularly. So you can get real, or we can get mean. Trust me, you've had a free ride so far.

[Matt]

Although I've enjoyed witnessing KCG's comeuppance, let's get back on topic.

This just in!!! 40 percent of smokers are mentally ill!!!!

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22907133-29277,00.html

On that note, I officially close this thread. Thanks everyone for participating.

Official Thread Summary: 901 is permanent.

<end of thread>

[Monkeyfist]

KCG, you are out of your fucking mind.

It truly makes me pine for her on some strange level. I don't understand it...

So KCG, about that cup of coffee?

[KittenComputerGoddess]

But I don't socialize while this xmas shit is driving me absolutely insane.

Also, you probably won't like me in person. It took three years for my current best friend to finally get me to actually speak to her. I don't like humans, the sterile soulless ones (the ones who don't like animals and actually think sanitizer is healthy).

[KittenComputerGoddess]

Meat:
Unless of course you enjoy denying it. If YOU really care then why would you care about only one person who is posting annonymously on the net instead of all the sick people you complain about in the shelters? If you didn't know I was right you would have just ignored my post, instead you have to try to lash out, why? Because you care even less than I do.

[Monkeyfist]

But I don't socialize while this xmas shit is driving me absolutely insane.

Also, you probably won't like me in person. It took three years for my current best friend to finally get me to actually speak to her. I don't like humans, the sterile soulless ones (the ones who don't like animals and actually think sanitizer is healthy).

Well then we should get along famously! Actually I can't back that up. I was an obnoxious ass last night at one point while at the SLOG/FORUM digs at Moe's. I think my fake vomiting enactment probably deemed me pretty unwanted by most everyone that was outside at one point. the door guy thought it was funny I think.

[Meat Weapon]

---KCG: Mirror images can't hurt you

Language turns to mush in your inept hands, doesn't it? I wish you were capable of connecting thoughts to words, but your reliance on clichéd phrases that sound vaguely aphoristic reveals only puddles of thought behind your threadbare personality. Shall I pity you for being dim? I do not. You are unwilling to consider alternatives.

---KCG: Unless of course you enjoy denying it.

Denying what, that "mirror images can't hurt me?" Were it the case that a cogent thought process could produce such a void of meaning, I might address the thought rather than the void. As it stands I see only the void.

---KCG: If YOU really care then why would you care about only one person who is posting annonymously on the net

Unlike you, Crow is a beloved member of our community. I and many others care very much about her well being. If you were predisposed to basic observation, you would see that our requirements for membership in good standing are minimal, yet it seems no bar is low enough for you.

---KCG: instead of all the sick people you complain about in the shelters?

Again, thoughts and words go together. The lack of reason in your words reveals the lack of reason in your thoughts. What are you trying to say, if anything, or are you just assembling random words in response to some hallucination? If you imagine you are writing in English, you might be suggesting that compassion for one individual precludes the possibility of compassion for others? What a ridiculous person you are.

Unless you have a developmental disability, which seems entirely possible, what confluence of circumstances could have produced such a worthless mind?

---KCG: If you didn't know I was right you would have just ignored my post,

I think I can pick these words apart and put them back together coherently. Let's see, I would have ignored your post if I thought you were wrong, yes? Is that what you tried to mean?

So now you are insisting that you were "right" to compare Crow's anti-smoking stance to the organization dedicated to lynching black people? And if I don't ignore such a monstrous proposition, it means I must agree with it? This is what you are trying to say?

You can be thankful that you are incapable of grasping the depth of your idiocy. It would drive you mad if you only knew.

[Abulafia]

It isn't apologizing?

Oh, dear.

[KittenComputerGoddess]

My turn to use your tactic.

"but your reliance on clichéd phrases that sound vaguely aphoristic reveals only puddles of thought behind your threadbare personality."

As opposed to your arrogant use of words which are pretty much never used in modern conversations?

"As it stands I see only the void."

Sad that you are blind, I pitty your blindness.

"compare Crow's anti-smoking stance to the organization dedicated to lynching black people"

Why are you restating what I already said, do you want the credit for that thought, fine, you can have it I guess.

"It would drive you mad if you only knew"

Been there, done that.

"yet it seems no bar is low enough for you"

Um, actually never was good at limbo.

The truly sad thing, this is not only what you do to others posts but to your statistics as well. Still, my advice stands, try looking at more than the corner of the frame for once.

My communication style is different from yours, but still no more annoying.

[Abulafia]

MW, are you still actually reading its posts? Why?

[Meat Weapon]

---KCG: The truly sad thing, this is not only what you do to others posts but to your statistics as well. Still, my advice stands, try looking at more than the corner of the frame for once. ---

Do you have any idea what you're trying to say? Because I sure don't.

To what does "this" refer?

What statistics are you talking about?

When did you issue the advice (on which you "stand") for me to "look at more than the corner of the frame?"

What do you think that means? What does the "frame" in your failed allegory signify? What would the corner of that meaningless signifier signify, if it could signify anything at all?

How do you manage to stay alive, and what is the appeal of life to one so bereft of comprehension?

---KCG: My communication style is different from yours, but still no more annoying. ---

See, the thing is you don't have a "style." I'm sure it makes you feel good to believe you are simply misunderstood because you have affected some kind of unpopular posture with your words. But there is no evidence of any style at all in your inability to communicate even basic human qualities.

No, all the evidence indicates you are simply an imbecile and a poser.

On some level I'm sure you must have come to understand this at some point in your life, if only as vague shadows of thoughts you were too terrified to illuminate. The misanthropic, barely human prick you've affected as a mask shields you from a shame no outsider could ever impose on you with mere scorn.

Is that the "style" you imagine you possess?

[KittenComputerGoddess]

That explains it, you are just shallow. Unpopular vs. popular is it? Guess what, those of us with brains don't play that game. If all you want to be is popular you WILL spend more time trying to fit in, instead of learning and growing, or even thinking for that matter.

And again, you still take my posts apart and look at each sentence or portion as if it stands alone. Your mind is no more intelligent than the computer you use, one word at a time, one bit at a time.

[Abulafia]

MW, are you still toying with it?

Listen, like I told you last night, she's a moron. Not merely "eh, don't be a moron!" moron: I mean she is cognitively [I]not that with it[?I]. I could expand more fully on her mediocrity—specifically in the cognitive realm (didn't you tell me she's one of the "oooh! two syllable words are looooong!" sorts? Ha. Oooh, MW, reading your English makes my heard hurt...), but as she's shown lately she is also what qualifies as socially delayed—but she's about as interesting as the phone book, about as repetitive, and undoubtedly a far less interesting dinner date. She's lonely as fuck, and knows it, and as she's shown lately she's let her dangerous combination of mediocre intellect, social retardation, missing familial models, incredibly low self esteem and a blatantly unattractive personality combine to make her a singularly despicable person. The fact that she seems to find even the disdain of others better than being passed by altogether shows you just unimportant, ignorable, invisible this piece of carbon flotsam feels—and, in all likelihood, is.

Only someone who has recognized how very unimportant, failed, disposible she is would consider insulting a cancer patient worith it as long as it means that someone finally—finally—talks to her.

Not worth your breath or your while. KCG is disposible. I say this about very few people. But very few people would attack a person with Stage IV cancer.

[KittenComputerGoddess]

Abu, you just proved that you care only to avoid looking wrong, not because you actually care about people. You are so afraid of being left out of everything that you would rather pretend to care for someone who is suffering and yet want another to suffer just because they aren't as popular. Thank you. You show your lack of a soul clearer than most.

At least I will die knowing I was honest, what will you have? Nothing so far. You lie, you twist others words, and you only car about those people you agree with on some level but pretend to care about everyone.

Me, I don't car about anyone I don't know or call friend. Brutal, but honesty. Why not try honesty for a change, at least say something like 'I only care about people with cancer'.

[toasterhedgehog]

It seems like almost every criticism KCG levels at someone else is a description of herself.

[KittenComputerGoddess]

No every, but when I share the same trait at least I admit it, if I know it.

The people who annoy me and which are fun to mess with are those who accuse others of something they themselves do but won't admit it.

[Abulafia]

THH, I have her on ignore so I have no idea what she's prattling on about. I take it she hasn't apologized? I trust you or someone else (Crow, esp., as it is to Crow that the apology must be directed) will let me know when she apologizes.

Thanks!

[Dr_Awesome]

Holy fuck, what a trainwreck of a thread!

Kitten-whatever-you-are: You've already shown in every goddamn post what a whiny baby you are. We get it, you've lead a hard life, you're semi-homeless or something, the public computers at the library are your only way to get on-line, and you're Da Bomb at C++ programming, or something (didn't C++ die out years ago?)

Oh, and you're some sort of "goddess" or another, and you claim to know all sorts of shit about pagan religions and gargoyles and "vampyres" and shit, but really that's just geek code for "you spend too goddamn much time on-line" and Abulafia showed just how ignorant about ancient religions and stuff you are like, months ago, didn't she? And yet you don't shut up about that twaddle and you continue to post.

Anyway, now you're trying to prove to a woman who is living with cancer that being anti-smoking is like belonging to the Ku Klux Klan?

Jeebus Gawd you're a twat. An unimaginable twat of horrific proportions. And your spelling, grammar, and even your ability to put your thoughts into text sucks big time*. It makes me stupider every time I read one of your posts.

In fact, from now on I think I'll only, *only* read Poochie's posts.


-------------------------------------------------
*seriously, go buy a fucking copy of Strunk & White, and use a fucking spell-checker before you post again. While it won't help the coherence of your posts, it will at least help the readability.

[Meat Weapon]

---KCG: you still take my posts apart and look at each sentence or portion as if it stands alone. ---

You seriously need to pay more attention to just about everything. This is precisely the opposite of what I would say about your posts. There is not one sentence or portion that stands on its own, in whole or in part.

What you mistake for "brutal honesty" is merely brutal. You flatter yourself to ascribe your absence of virtue to one of the highest virtues. It is more than a mere perversion of language or meaning; it is a perversion of truth.

I suppose one so conspicuously devoid of any distinction (aside from the distinction of being singularly absent any distinction) must resort to ironic perversions in order to sustain some illusion of existence. Thus your inability to reason is magically transformed into "thinking for yourself." Your vicious disregard for others' misfortunes is rewritten as a "refusal to play games." Your every moral failure is reinvented as a virtue.

Existing in such an umbra you need never exert any effort or feel any sense of responsibility to yourself or anyone else. You needn't contribute anything other than your passive waste to feel entitled to the space you occupy, the air you breath. Everything you touch is transfigured to shit and death, and so you imagine that is the extent of the universe, that in order to accurately or "honestly" reflect your inner and outer world you must be hideous at all times, that ugliness and putrefaction are the only truth.

What a truly friendless monster you must be.

[KittenComputerGoddess]

That's funny, so, when you step on one ant you go crying?

Virtues are forced apon us by people who want to belong, they are not a natural thing, and therefore are not something I even care about. There are more than 6 billion humans, are you suppose to care about each one? Nope, this is a worldwide overpopulation, and it you are capable of caring for each one you have WAY too much time on your hands. I only care about the few I associate in real life, it's all I have time for (except during this shitty holiday which I have more time to hate than anything). Oh, hate, such a wonderfull virtue, even if as artificial as all the others. Both hate and care are used by people to belong, however, you have to hate and care like them in order for them to like you. Sad, if you lie and pretend to care about some anonymous person who you have never met just to not look bad then you are dishonest.

Sorry, but just because I don't want to belong to a collective does not make me bad, even if it doesn't make me good. I can choose not to care and post my opinion to that. However, if they had posted it elsewhere I wouldn't even have bothered reading or posting, it was used as an attack, and that has no virtue either. To use ones bad luck as an attack on something is like holding a baby up as a shield, it's wrong.

[Meat Weapon]

---KCG: That's funny, so, when you step on one ant you go crying? ---

Your comparison of human beings to ants further explains the true depth of your pathology. It is total, isn't it? You haven't even one redeeming quality?

---KCG: Virtues are forced apon us by people who want to belong, they are not a natural thing, and therefore are not something I even care about. ---

I can understand how someone who is both lacking in natural graces and teeming with indolence would view quality of character as a burden. It would be far simpler for you to conclude that viciousness is natural, and therefore good enough for you.

---KCG: Sorry, but just because I don't want to belong to a collective does not make me bad, even if it doesn't make me good.

Actually, yes, your refusal to participate in human society makes you bad. This is because you are (probably) human, and you live among other humans. By stubbornly refusing to contribute anything of value, grace, intelligence, or any other virtue, your make yourself an unwelcome burden. Nobody wants you around, and that's your fault. This is not a simple matter of "belonging," since you have shirked even the most basic requirements for social participation. Instead you resent the concept that other people should be allowed to expect anything at all from you, and so you purposely offer nothing. You are a subtraction.

[KittenComputerGoddess]

Human qualities: Judgementalism, Hatred, Guns, etc.

When these stop, then those of us who are tired of the human condition will stop being so 'antisocial'. You just committed the one that annoys us the most, judegmentalism. You judged me as bad just because I see things different from you, or perhaps your 'collective'. (damn I hate Star Trek but the concept is a perfect match to this)

Also, what makes humans so much more important than all the other animals we need for survival?

[Abulafia]

MW, I was just remembering something hilarious.

Remember when MSP kept leading her on and made her call him "Papa," and then she did? She was so excited that she getting some male attention, she actually called him "Papa."

Hold on. I gotta find that. It's too good not to check out again.

Uppercase "P" for Papa.

Ask again. Correct usage, please.

Yes Papa?

The Day was Nov. 3. The thread was "Leave your savior." Oh, how Abs laughed and laughed.

It's not as funny as her thinking that MF is actually asking her out to coffee, but it's pretty good. "Coffee? Sure! Why do you ask? We could go to Tully's!" [bi = "does this up my chances of every getting laid? Please?"]

Ah man. Hilarious.

Also, apropos to the other thing we were talking about: it's the gaming mentality. I've seen it a thousand times before: the ugly fat girls, not too smart, start gaming in order to find some crowd in which ugly is cool and "not so smart" is tolerated because, you know, gamers are desperate for other gamers. So anyway, there's that type. Socially delayed, not super smart, undereducated (I've noticed a lot of learning disabilities in this group), and then they get into the gaming with all of its "fantasy" and "stuff," and start thinking they know a lot about shit they know nothing about (wicca, paganism, "ancient Egyptian religion" and so on), because they think they gaming world represents an authoritative version. Seriously. Every freaking gamer I know has gone through a "pagan" phase. Ooooh! I can use a computer! I bought a book at Barnes and Noble! I know all about this stuff! I'm the original P!

I have no idea whether this one games. But I'll be damned if it's not the same mentality. It's so freaking funny.

Ok. See you in a few.

[KittenComputerGoddess]

Hmmm ... it seems Abu equates real contact and in person discussion with nothing but sexual practice. I am sooooo glad I don't know you in person.

[Meat Weapon]

--- KCG: Judgementalism ---

Yes, judgment is another one of those virtues you so despise.

--- KCG: those of us who are tired of the human condition ---

You are weary of the condition, yet you embody the viciousness from which it suffers. How you must envy the gutter.

[KittenComputerGoddess]

Just more bseless judgements.

[Meat Weapon]

--- KCG: Just more bseless judgements.

Spoken as one who lacks the ability to judge, only to condemn.

[KittenComputerGoddess]

Weee! I feel like Gir, and you are .... Dib!

"I love this show."

Sorry, a lot of Zim lately, but if you don't get the corrilation then ....

[Matt]

Great news! Bills in the legislature would help protect children from secondhand smoke while in vehicles!

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/politics/2004133934_smoking19m.html

California and a few other states have already passed such a law. It's a no-brainer. No kid should be subjected to cancer-causing cigarette smoke.

This is fantastic!!!

<end of thread>

[hotstuff12345]

So these guys have their own video series about the best shooting video games and they are very funny. Take a look as the videos have become very popular - they are now known all over the world.

Here is a link to the latest video: http://youtube.com/watch?v=O9LlSvAT9pc&feature=user [youtube.com]


The website for these guys is: www.shootersfps.com

[KittenComputerGoddess]

Oh yeah, protect the children from a slight increase in getting sick while completely destroying their future by being lazy. Let's keep focusing on the tiny problems so everyone in America feels like we are doing something right while completely ignoring the fact that autos put out TONS of cancerous chemicals, destroy the ground and water with even more dangerous chemicals. Let's worry about today so we don't have to think about the fact that the children will suffer more in the future for your laziness.

Tell you what, once laws that actually cause an impact on the health of everyone are enacted then perhaps you morons will make sense.

[Matt]

I can't believe I'm going to say this, but I think Kitten is right. Protecting the health of children is less important than protecting the right of smokers to damage their children's health. And, besides, we have to be sympathetic to the fact that smokers are so addicted to nicotine that they just HAVE to smoke in an enclosed space with their children present. Satisfying their addiction is infinitely more important than satisfying a child's desire to inhale fresh air.

I stand corrected.

[Smalan Ithee]

OK, it's ass-freezing cold outside, so I figure it may be cold in hell as well because.....

(and trust me, it's VERY hard to admit this)

.....on the particular issue of HB2509 and SB6287 (choke, ahem, adjusts tie) I agree with Matt. Nanny state blah blah blah - seriously, who can argue with this? Really? Smoke in a car with a kid? Don't give a shit about the alleged potential eroding of personal freedoms on this one.

All the other Matt crap - yeah, I'm sure the fucknuttitude will continue. This one's a no-brainer - don't smoke in a car with a kid. jeebus.

[Abulafia]

All the other Matt crap - yeah, I'm sure the fucknuttitude will continue. This one's a no-brainer - don't smoke in a car with a kid. jeebus.

Yeah. I'm totally against the smoking ban, but smoking in cars with kids? I can't even believe there has to be a law against it. What kind of a fucking moron would do that?

[Monkeyfist]

Yeah. I'm totally against the smoking ban, but smoking in cars with kids? I can't even believe there has to be a law against it. What kind of a fucking moron would do that?

You'd be surprised. Some people I know personally, and let the record show I am not find of this particular family, not only smoke with thier kids in the car, but barely crack the window when they do so. It's gross enough to get into the car when someone smokes in it. But to subject a child that has no other option or opinion to something such as that is not parenting, it's slow murder.

[Abulafia]

You'd be surprised. Some people I know personally, and let the record show I am not find of this particular family, not only smoke with thier kids in the car, but barely crack the window when they do so. It's gross enough to get into the car when someone smokes in it. But to subject a child that has no other option or opinion to something such as that is not parenting, it's slow murder.

That is simply appalling.

[Monkeyfist]

That is simply appalling.

.................Yep................

[scourge]

It'd be a pretty unenforceable law.

[Matt]

I agree with Matt. And thus the Old Testament prophecy of Johosephat has come to pass: "Behold, all pussies (even Melle, that bitch) will kneel at the foot of the Lord of Black Balloons." 1 Samuel 13:1.

[Matt]

It'd be a pretty unenforceable law.Not true. My black balloons are, like God, omnipresent.

If someone is breaking the law, I'll know about it. And I will take retribution measures. Think Charles Bronson, but with black balloons instead of a gun.

<end of thread>

[Smalan Ithee]

All the other Matt crap - yeah, I'm sure the fucknuttitude will continue.
And thus the Old Testament prophecy of Johosephat has come to pass: "Behold, all pussies (even Melle, that bitch) will kneel at the foot of the Lord of Black Balloons." 1 Samuel 13:1.
Oh dear dear dear...sometimes one just has to shake his/her head and giggle.

[judge]

Smoke and Ash
I smoke because it is morning, and the sun has not yet risen.

I smoke because I am awake; mustering fortitude to equal
another remarkable day; I smoke to prevail against the mundane.
Because there is something—heartrending yet defiant—
about huddling on my lover’s porch on a cold winter morning,
blowing plumes, orchestrating patterns that emerge out of Chaos.
It makes me feel tangible, as though I am.
Or because after all, it is my house, no one dares criticize me here.
Or because I am twenty-five feet from any doorway,
and according to law, that is where I may smoke, so back-off,
I am determined to take any meager sanctuary this world offers.

I smoke because twenty years ago my husband bankrupted us
and being religious, I was ordained to withstand the creditors,
my husband’s inexcusable absence, my child’s hunger,
the wretched sinking. Where was god then? I smoke
because I was consumed with anger; because god shrank
to an impotent wisp; because some men are all hype
and hope is a dead-end.

I used to write poetry after my husband had gone to bed.
I drank Riesling, and smoked until I passed out.
I smoke because I am unhinged by images
of utopias and an apocalypse, because in every dream—
in the dewy spider webs draped near my door—
in the sticks and puddles—there are beauty-filled poems
I feel inadequate and too untalented to expose.
I smoke to gain clarity with my thoughts and to organize my feelings.
When I don’t smoke I can’t write. I am unable to write if I am happy.
Still, no one reads my poetry. I suspect it is not worth reading;
I smoke in desperation. Who am I, if not a bad writer?

I smoke because my friends used to smoke. In tight circles
we sat and blew rings, and French-inhaled, and spoke at length
about the existential absurdity of humanity. I use cigarettes
to emphasize points, wave them like a banner
or to stab the impeding air. I smoke because, like my friends,
I am destined to die. I can not imagine not being.
I want to wear death like a black coat I can throw off at will.
I want to scoff death. I smoke because I am a liar.
I smoke because of the anxiety of living,
because I am not sure about anything but loss.
Loss shreds me and I keep thinking I should have
earned something, should have something to show for it all.
I smoke because I can not bear to admit
I am uncomfortable with ambivalence, uncomfortable
with conflict, with making choices and accepting that I don’t know.
I smoke because inconsistency is the spice of life,
and I am inconsistent.

Now none of my friends smoke. I smoke to carve out space
in order to be unhampered by the cat-calls and needs of others.
I smoke to be left alone. No one likes a smoker. I smoke
because I can not admit I may need others. I smoke
because I was lonely. Because loneliness is a black hole
where I was adrift, unconnected, and when I finally faced it—
when I finally got myself alone and all to myself, I smoked
for the courage to see myself vulnerable. I smoke
to remind myself that it is humanity’s lot to be
lonely, broken, self-saboteurs as well as self-healers.

I suspect my mother used to smoke when she carried me,
and I am susceptible to smoking. Every night,
my father smoked a cigar and drank beer.
I smoke because I drink wine. I smoke because I drink coffee.
I smoke because I smoke.
Smoking is my birthright. It is my meal of porridge.
It is my inheritance. It is the only thing my parents ever gave me.

My daughter visits and just looking at her, I am reminded of her father,
and how leaving him meant I had abandoned her to eke out
her own future, a future suddenly, bleakly different
than the one she counted so. So I smoke. I smoke for her grief
and for mine. When she visits, we smoke away the shame
of our separation.

I plop a pack of cigarettes on the kitchen counter. I smoke them
to motivate myself to clean the house. One sink full of dishes
is book-ended with deep drags and regret at the long un-smoked ash
hanging in air like an accusation.
At work I smoke because there are cigarettes on my desk.
I confront the next assignment and am not ready to move on it,
I smoke. My supervisor calls, I smoke. I smoke before presentations.
I smoke before and after interviews, before and after meetings.
My input—my expertise—is called out. I smoke to steady my nerve—
to gather my thoughts. My cigarettes are always there for me.
I don’t think about what they ask for in return.


I smoke because I am attracted to fire. I smoke because
I am an Aries. I am impetuous, a danger-lover.
After smoking, I flick off the glowing ember, pinch the burning paper,
only too aware of my propensity for harmful acts done in rage.
Secretly, I want to burn it all down. Burn down the office
and all its demands. Burn down the system that holds it.
I want to Burn down the artifacts of my life—the books that prove
I am never too smart to smoke, the clothes, the shoes, and the hats
piling like a pyre—just one other obsessive consumption—
the love letters that in the end didn’t hold—
burn down my foolish belief that, like a phoenix, I can rise from ash.
There are so few second chances. I smoke to burn out
my mis-beliefs, my ill-conceived speculations. The plumes mirror
my gray, complicated heart. I know that somewhere I got lost.
I will smoke until I find my way.

by Alley Greymond... (isnt she intense?..)

[Matt]

I smoke in desperation. . . I smoke because I am a liar. . . No one likes a smoker.Very well said, judge. And your words serve as a perfect way to end this thread. Thanks.

<end of thread>

[meherenowie]

I want to Burn down the artifacts of my life—the books that prove
I am never too smart to smoke, the clothes, the shoes, and the hats
piling like a pyre—just one other obsessive consumption—
the love letters that in the end didn’t hold—
burn down my foolish belief that, like a phoenix, I can rise from ash.
There are so few second chances. I smoke to burn out
my mis-beliefs, my ill-conceived speculations. The plumes mirror
my gray, complicated heart. I know that somewhere I got lost.
I will smoke until I find my way.

great pick, judge

[Jimmy Flame]

Hahahahaa... This forum will NEVER die. Guess what people. You will never be able to smoke in bars in Washington ever again! Get over it already.

[judge]

Hahahahaa... This forum will NEVER die. Guess what people. You will never be able to smoke in bars in Washington ever again! Get over it already.

There is a bar in this secret city, where the hookas burn and the libations flow.. And if you are nice to ol' Judge. He can let out a few clues that will ultimately lead you the place. That is "if" it still exists.
Last i'd checked was three weeks ago.
First clue,..

[Jimmy Flame]

Big fuckin' deal. I'm not talking about "hidden" places where only people in the know, or "cool" people get to go. I don't want to be around those fucks anyway. I like being around people who are not afraid of being themselves.

[frankbenji]

If you stop smoking (http://www.beststopsmokingsupport.com/stop-smoking-course/) now you can increase your chances of living from two to twelve times longer and save thousands of dollars in medical expensive and the cost of cigarettes!

[Rain Monkey]

If you stop smoking now you can increase your chances of living from two to twelve.

Just thought I could help edit your sentence to have a bit more punch.

[Jimmy Flame]

Hey if you stop bitching about everything you increase your chances from 2 to 12 to not end up with a pile of shit in your mouth

[scourge]

If you stop smoking (http://www.beststopsmokingsupport.com/stop-smoking-course/) now you can increase your chances of living from two to twelve times longer and save thousands of dollars in medical expensive and the cost of cigarettes!

Twelve times longer? Really?

[Matt]

Initiative 901 passed overwhelmingly.

<end of thread>

[Jimmy Flame]

Yup. And every time you talk it sounds like your passing gas.

[Matt]

Yup. And every time you talk it sounds like your passing gas.You sicken me with your immature and off-topic comments.

<end of thread>

[Jimmy Flame]

You sicken me with your immature and off-topic comments.

<end of thread>

Oh now it's immature. You should learn to laugh a little. Then people wouldn't think you are a douche!

[Mr Sparkly Pants]

Twelve times longer? Really?

Oh, yeah.

And if you've smoked over 100 cigarettes at any point in your life, your arteries are permanently damaged. This of course means that if you've smoked 91 cigarettes in your life, don't worry, your arteries are perfect. And if you're a male in the 100 Club, you have a howmanyever hundred percent added chance of getting some herniated growth on your spinal column that can cause paralysis or death.

I actually heard some cheesewhiz goodie2shoes health guy talk about this on the radio a couple years ago.

[Matt]

You should learn to laugh a little.Oh, I laugh plenty. I laugh every time I see a nicotine addict huddled outside in the cold rain, puffing away at their cancer stick. I downright chuckle. Warms my heart to see that.

And, as anyone who has read my posts knows, I'm incredibly funny. Certainly funnier than Melle (that bitch!).

<end of thread>

[Jimmy Flame]

Oh, I laugh plenty. I laugh every time I see a nicotine addict huddled outside in the cold rain, puffing away at their cancer stick. I downright chuckle. Warms my heart to see that.

And, as anyone who has read my posts knows, I'm incredibly funny. Certainly funnier than Melle (that bitch!).

<end of thread>

Keep telling yourself that. Even funnier that you have to walk through all that smoke!

[tina.anderson]

Keep telling yourself that. Even funnier that you have to walk through all that smoke!

I don't think it's funny. Why should non-smokers have to breathe in other people's smoke at all? I don't care how much of a moron someone may be, they shouldn't be subjected to breathing in smoke against their will. It boggles my mind how there are still people who smoke. Have you been living in a cave or under a rock for the past 20 years and you didn't hear that it may be a bit of a health risk? And do you have no concern for other people when you light up in any situation or any setting you feel like?

[Matt]

Tina, don't worry too much about Jimmy. I forced some black balloons up his ass a few months back, and he's never been the same.

[Monkeyfist]

I don't think it's funny. Why should non-smokers have to breathe in other people's smoke at all? I don't care how much of a moron someone may be, they shouldn't be subjected to breathing in smoke against their will. It boggles my mind how there are still people who smoke. Have you been living in a cave or under a rock for the past 20 years and you didn't hear that it may be a bit of a health risk? And do you have no concern for other people when you light up in any situation or any setting you feel like?

Have you been living under a rock. Smokers can't light up whenever they feel like it. Maybe you didn't read the title of the post, but if not look at the top of the thread and put that brain to work.

this smoker segragation was in the pipeline for a long time. But it is getting out of hand in a hurry. It's almost giving cops another "Don't you have anything better to do" job.
Maybe fighting crime instead of relying on super heroes to it.

[Jimmy Flame]

Wow. Can you hear yourself? You assume I light up whenever I "feel" like it. And I might have lived under a rock or in a cave? Is that poetry or something? I usually don't "hang out" with people who are going to complain about something I enjoy. Why would I? I think one time someone walked by me while I was smoking and said, "your stupid". So I said, "fuck you". And we went our seperate ways.

Matt- Oh please don't tease me with the balloon trick.

I don't think it's funny. Why should non-smokers have to breathe in other people's smoke at all? I don't care how much of a moron someone may be, they shouldn't be subjected to breathing in smoke against their will. It boggles my mind how there are still people who smoke. Have you been living in a cave or under a rock for the past 20 years and you didn't hear that it may be a bit of a health risk? And do you have no concern for other people when you light up in any situation or any setting you feel like?

[breather]

New reports of smoking upstairs at the Comet Tavern on Capitol Hill. Let's put them back in there place, i.e., outfuckingside:

http://www.metrokc.gov/health/tobacco/report.htm

[skidmark]

New reports of smoking upstairs at the Comet Tavern on Capitol Hill. Let's put them back in there place, i.e., outfuckingside:

http://www.metrokc.gov/health/tobacco/report.htm

How by registering complaints about things heard in the news and not witnessed?

Oh, thats a winner of hearts and minds.

[Jimmy Flame]

New reports of smoking upstairs at the Comet Tavern on Capitol Hill. Let's put them back in there place, i.e., outfuckingside:

http://www.metrokc.gov/health/tobacco/report.htm

OMG! The sky is falling!

[Mr Sparkly Pants]

New reports of smoking upstairs at the Comet Tavern on Capitol Hill. Let's put them back in there place, i.e., outfuckingside:

http://www.metrokc.gov/health/tobacco/report.htm

Ohforjesuschristsake, find yourself a way to get one of those lives you've been hearing so much about.

The last time I was at the Comet (last year), I could not see the concrete out front for the cig butts, and all the smoke blew in through the windows. I think 90% of everyone there was a smoker, going "outside" every ten minutes to join the other 25 people crammed in the doorway sucking butts.

Smoking Ban for Bars (especially places like the Comet) = Pointless.

Oh yeah, that was the same night about seven or eight (no exaggeration) fully uniformed firemen strolled into the Comet, pushing people out of their way to do a goosestep through the joint. After they left, a 'sold out' sign went on the door. It wasn't that full. Reminded me of how glad I am my regualr clubbing days are over.

[breather]

The last time I was at the Comet (last year), I could not see the concrete out front for the cig butts, and all the smoke blew in through the windows. I think 90% of everyone there was a smoker, going "outside" every ten minutes to join the other 25 people crammed in the doorway sucking butts.

Smoking Ban for Bars (especially places like the Comet) = Pointless.

As for the stench blowing back inside, we need to start enforcing the 25 foot rule. As for the butts on the ground that is, unfortunately to be expected from the kind of people who smoke.

As for the ban being pointless, far from it, it just needs more teeth.

[Matt]

New reports of smoking upstairs at the Comet Tavern on Capitol Hill. Let's put them back in there place, i.e., outfuckingside:

http://www.metrokc.gov/health/tobacco/report.htmThanks for the tip, breather.

I have decided to add the Comet to my weekly Kick Ass Tour. I'll be there Saturday at 11 PM. And I'll be bringing my black balloons. Pussy smokers (that's redundant) tend to wet their pants at my approach. Let's just say there won't be any smoking at the Comet after my visit.

Outfuckingside. LOL! That's where these nicotine addict stanky-smelling pieces of crap belong. Yeah, that includes you, Jimmy.

[Matt]

I could not see the concrete out front for the cig butts, and all the smoke blew in through the windows.I recently went to Trinity. Had a few drinks, shook my bootie, enjoyed the lustful stares from women. Most important, I breathed smoke-free air the entire time. Didn't notice any cig butts outside. No smoke coming in. It was so nice to enjoy a smokefree night out. And didn't reek of smoke afterwards. It was fab. And all thanks to me and my fellow 901 crusaders.

Smoking Ban for Bars (especially places like the Comet) = Pointless.See above.

<end of thread>

[Smalan Ithee]

As for the stench blowing back inside, we need to start enforcing the 25 foot rule."We"? Hmmmm - breather/Matt is an employee of SPD. Because that would be the only "we" who's charged w/ enforcement of the 25 ft. rule.I recently went to Trinity.Oh sweet lord - Jimmy or MSP, wanna take this one?

[Abulafia]

"Oh sweet lord - Jimmy or MSP, wanna take this one?

I just Googled Trinity. Looks totally pussy.

[Smalan Ithee]

I just Googled Trinity. Looks totally pussy.I'm acquainted w/ the owner, assuming he's still the owner. You know how clubs go. Nice guy. Hope everyone who goes to the joint, including MATT, knows the owner is TOTALLY not like you and is perfectly happy making money off of the folks who've come out to see the Playmate of the Month. Laughing all the way to the bank.

Unlike other bars of course (snort).

Soooooo....smoking. Yeah. Is that crazy or what?

[frankbenji]

Smoking should be banned in public places as well as pubs.It causes adverse effects and ruins health.Smoking is a bad expensive habit and stop smoking (http://www.beststopsmokingsupport.com/stop-smoking-course/) now you can increase your chances of living from two to twelve times longer and save thousands of dollars in medical expensive and the cost of cigarettes

[Mr Sparkly Pants]

Smoking should be banned in public places as well as pubs.It causes adverse effects and ruins health.Smoking is a bad expensive habit and stop smoking (http://www.beststopsmokingsupport.com/stop-smoking-course/) now you can increase your chances of living from two to twelve times longer and save thousands of dollars in medical expensive and the cost of cigarettes

Just fucking blow me.

[Matt]

Just fucking blow me.I'm fairly certain that I don't appreciate that type of language.

<end of thread>

[Jimmy Flame]

Trinity? I have NO comment.
I'd love to see the charade at the Comet.
Holy shit. Could you imagine the laughter?
Are you going to march up from Trinity?
Are you going to have lots of other douche bags with you?
Are you gonna' play "enforcer"?
Fuck thats gonna' be funny!

[Matt]

Oh, dear, the following sure puts a crimp in the moronic statements by pro-cigarette fools that we should concentrate on car exhaust and other air pollutants first instead of "wasting time on little cigarettes that barely harm anyone."

Read it and weep, morons.

"Nicotine addiction and cancer put cigarettes in a league of their own. Breathing outdoor air, even on bad days, is not like smoking cigarettes."

"the dose of particulates in the air per day and per lifetime is 200 times smaller than that from five cigarettes a day."

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695259234,00.html

[Matt]

Hey, Jimmy, this just in:

"Scientists have suggested that smokers experience less happiness, pleasure and life satisfaction compared to non-smokers."
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=46686&sectionid=3510210

I've already provided evidence that smokers are stupider, poorer, and less educated. Also provided studies that showed that male smokers' you-know-whats don't work too well. There just never seems to be good news for smokers, huh?

It's your choice, Jimmy. You can be happy and have a pecker that works. Just stop smoking.

Btw, while I'm demonstrating how right I am, here's some good news that shows (as I've always maintained) that smoking bans are GOOD for business:

"Study: Smoking ban benefits bar business"
http://www.wisconsinrapidstribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080311/WRT0101/803110478

<end of thread>

[Jimmy Flame]

Well, you obviously don't know me. Don't you know by now that I don't give a shit? I'm quite happy with my pecker, BTW... Stupid!

[Mr Sparkly Pants]

Read it and weep, morons.

And you're so brilliant you probably know that the Deseret Morning News (Salt Lk City, no less) is a Mormon-owned publication. You know who the Mormons are, right?

"Nicotine addiction and cancer put cigarettes in a league of their own. Breathing outdoor air, even on bad days, is not like smoking cigarettes."

No one ever argued this, Tippy. Your beef was passive smoke.

"the dose of particulates in the air per day and per lifetime is 200 times smaller than that from five cigarettes a day."

200 times smaller than what, in which concentration? In whose lifetime? How was this measured? Who measured it? Oh, don't bother. I'll just add that Batman is 50 times more effective a crime fighter than Spiderman. I read that once on a Batman Forever blog, coincidentally enough.


http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695259234,00.html

Here's the point of the article:

He had objected to comparisons between air pollution's harmful effects and smoking five to 10 cigarettes a day, according to a copy of his statement that he provided to the Deseret Morning News.


What a dopey comparison. One variable is passive, airborne pollutants, the other an undiluted dose of straight tobacco smoke several times per day.

More (unscientific) perspective for you: Wrap your lips around a tailpipe 5-10 times a day and let me know how that goes for you.

You're so dumb!

[jfresh]

i'm truly jealous of all the fascist asshole non smokers who apparently are going to live forever.

[meherenowie]

M'hm...Matt's gonna have so much fun spending his final 20 years in shitty diapers.

[Matt]

i'm truly jealous of all the fascist asshole non smokers who apparently are going to live forever.Not forever. Just without our clothes and hair smelling really really bad and stanky.

Smokers stink, donchaknow? Like ashtrays.

In fact, they stink even when they're not smoking. That's like SUPER stank.

What's really sad is that smokers have no idea how bad they smell.

In summary, stink.

<end of thread>

[jfresh]

Not forever. Just without our clothes and hair smelling really really bad and stanky.

Smokers stink, donchaknow? Like ashtrays.

In fact, they stink even when they're not smoking. That's like SUPER stank.

What's really sad is that smokers have no idea how bad they smell.

In summary, stink.

<end of thread>


self righteous assholes stink worse than anyone. they are going to die not knowing that everyone around them despised them.

[Jimmy Flame]

Yup. And your shit smells like roses buddy.

[jfresh]

not roses, its kind of a mix of orange peels and old spice.

[KittenComputerGoddess]

What stinks and what doesn't is completely subjective. I cannot stand the smell of ANY perfume, it gives me migraines, but I can't get that banned. Many people like the smell of burning pine, some like cedar better. Most people in the city don't realize that the stronger, more toxic, and less pleasant smell of automobiles has filled our air, which smells worse than anything else burning. You don't notice it because you have been around it so much and accustomed to it, untill we can ban cars for THEIR toxic gasses (over a thousand times more than all the smokers) then shut the hell up. You are just another hypocrit trying to find someone else to push into the blame light so you can continue your illusion of superiority, nothing more. A shallow excuse for a human is the one that lives in the city, drives a car, then complains about a tiny little cig just because THEY don't like the smell. I love the smell of burning buildings .... oh, where do you live and work again? (luckily I don't like to break the law like most motorists)

[Matt]

What stinks and what doesn't is completely subjective.It's not subjective when it comes to cigarettes. Smokers smell really bad.

And by "bad" I mean really stanky. I can smell one from 30 feet away (And I'm talking about when they aren't smoking). Know how? Cuz their clothes REEK. Their hair REEKS.

They are walking ashtrays of stankiness.

Fact.

I'll be glad to repeat this as necessary until your nicotine-drenched and damaged brains accept reality. And you will.

<end of thread>

[jfresh]

jesus you post alot in an ended thread.

[Jimmy Flame]

It's not subjective when it comes to cigarettes. Smokers smell really bad.

And by "bad" I mean really stanky. I can smell one from 30 feet away (And I'm talking about when they aren't smoking). Know how? Cuz their clothes REEK. Their hair REEKS.

They are walking ashtrays of stankiness.

Fact.

I'll be glad to repeat this as necessary until your nicotine-drenched and damaged brains accept reality. And you will.

<more of this thread>

Hey, lets hear it again! And the, "and you will", threat. Please tell! What you gonna' do about it? Blow up a balloon?

Whats huge sweaty and on your chin Matt? My nuts!

[Matt]

Hey, lets hear it again!!If a nicotine addict denies it, I will do so. As you know, I'm here to educate.

Whats huge sweaty and on your chin Matt? My nuts!Jimmy doth protest too much (http://www.webmd.com/erectile-dysfunction/news/20030307/smoking-can-lead-to-erectile-dysfunction), methinks.

<end of thread>

[Ballard Pimp]

Bumping the thread upon request.

[Matt]

This just in:

"Numbers released by the state Department of Revenue show that bars and taverns in Washington saw a more than 20 percent increase in gross income in 2007."


Nuf said.

[Duncan]

This just in:

"Numbers released by the state Department of Revenue show that bars and taverns in Washington saw a more than 20 percent increase in gross income in 2007."


Nuf said.

People smoking less and drinking more. I guess it's a step forwards.

[Melle]

This just in:

"Numbers released by the state Department of Revenue show that bars and taverns in Washington saw a more than 20 percent increase in gross income in 2007."


Nuf said.

I have a feeling that if the smoking ban were genuinely good for business, we'd be hearing about net profits---not gross profits/revenues.

And when you look at taxable sales by industry (http://dor.wa.gov/Docs/Pubs/News/2008/LOCAL_TRS_STATEWIDE_CAL07.pdf), you find that profits at "restaurants, bars, and drinking places" increased by about 7% (the rate of increase for all taxable retail sales (http://dor.wa.gov/Content/AboutUs/newsroom/html/TRS2007.aspx) in WA last year) in 2007 ($8.9 billion up from $8.3 billion).

The data for 2005 or earlier isn't posted, making it impossible to judge how last year's increase compares to pre-ban figures.

Personally, I doubt Washington State's bars as a whole were much affected by the ban. The suggestion of a 20% boom in business sounds awful far-fetched.

[freikja]

l personally don't understand the fanaticism of non-smokers. lf we ain't doin our thing in your home, who gives a goddamn shit?

FJ,
the responsible and respectful smoker

[freikja]

Personally, I doubt Washington State's bars as a whole were much affected by the ban. The suggestion of a 20% boom in business sounds awful far-fetched.

Thank you. While l'm happy to meet a number of new people that didn't come out as a result of the smoking, from what l've seen personally, l don't see a major boom or decrease in sales and business.

[Meat Weapon]

l personally don't understand the fanaticism of non-smokers. lf we ain't doin our thing in your home, who gives a goddamn shit?

FJ,
the responsible and respectful smoker

I think it should have been handled through employment law. The main issue is that employers should be required to provide employees with a non-hazardous work environment, and bar owners shouldn't be exempt just because patrons might enjoy creating a hazardous environment.

To the degree that bar owners are willing to operate a business without any employees, they should be allowed to operate a business where people smoke.

[Melle]

I think it should have been handled through employment law. The main issue is that employers should be required to provide employees with a non-hazardous work environment, and bar owners shouldn't be exempt just because patrons might enjoy creating a hazardous environment.

To the degree that bar owners are willing to operate a business without any employees, they should be allowed to operate a business where people smoke.

This was actually done in New York. Owner-operated bars with no employees are allowed to allow smoking. I think there is a bar like this somewhere in NYC; obviously it can't exactly be a hot spot.

But this would seem to encourage socialism. Bequeath ownership unto Labor & everyone can smoke. Hmmm, I wonder if that's been tried.

[Meat Weapon]

This was actually done in New York. Owner-operated bars with no employees are allowed to allow smoking. I think there is a bar like this somewhere in NYC; obviously it can't exactly be a hot spot.

But this would seem to encourage socialism. Bequeath ownership unto Labor & everyone can smoke. Hmmm, I wonder if that's been tried.

A reasonable solution, to be sure.

Edit: this is actually how socialism should evolve, by the way: not by decree, but through emergence in areas just like this.

Edit 2: Ironically, this is another area, like civil rights, where some publicly-traded corporations are years ahead of government by enacting profit-sharing programs and stock-purchase plans on top of the compensation package. It isn't "ownership by labor," but it's much closer than anything the government has been willing to impose externally since about the turn of the 1970s.

[freikja]

I think it should have been handled through employment law. The main issue is that employers should be required to provide employees with a non-hazardous work environment, and bar owners shouldn't be exempt just because patrons might enjoy creating a hazardous environment.

To the degree that bar owners are willing to operate a business without any employees, they should be allowed to operate a business where people smoke.

l don't disagree with that at all. At all. l don't want to subject a nonsmoker to my shit if it's an issue. l just don't get people who bitch about my habit when it's well ventilated. Seriously. To be clear, l don't "enjoy" creating a "hazardous environment". l do what l do. l understand not everyone does it and that's cool. l just reject the implication that we do it deliberately or with some ulterior motive in mind. Just sayin.

[freikja]

A reasonable solution, to be sure.

Edit: this is actually how socialism should evolve, by the way: not by decree, but through emergence in areas just like this.

l agree. There are a couple of places here that have smoke-easys, afterhours and when the regs who smoke arrive. l dig that. l definitely agree.

[Melle]

A reasonable solution, to be sure.

Edit: this is actually how socialism should evolve, by the way: not by decree, but through emergence in areas just like this.

I have found my calling. TOBACCO SOCIALISM.

I hereby unfurl my banner with a cough.

(Can't believe I didn't think of this earlier. I really must be a bit stupid.)

Edit 2: Ironically, this is another area, like civil rights, where some publicly-traded corporations are years ahead of government by enacting profit-sharing programs and stock-purchase plans on top of the compensation package. It isn't "ownership by labor," but it's much closer than anything the government has been willing to impose externally since about the turn of the 1970s.

It's really a pity that State Socialism long ago became synonymous with Socialism in nearly everyone's mind. State Socialism is probably not capable of being a very good thing (and is of course famously capable of being a very bad thing). But Socialism organized on small scales by means of free association could be the best thing yet.

[Mr Sparkly Pants]

This was actually done in New York. Owner-operated bars with no employees are allowed to allow smoking. I think there is a bar like this somewhere in NYC; obviously it can't exactly be a hot spot.

But this would seem to encourage socialism. Bequeath ownership unto Labor & everyone can smoke. Hmmm, I wonder if that's been tried.

A pal of mine knows of one place like this in Brooklyn, but they aren't cool about a ton of people they don't know going there. I guess the deal is if you were not at least a semi-reg before the ban, they don't let you in. It's a very tiny place.

[Rain Monkey]

Bumping the thread upon request.

NNNNNOOOOOOOOoooooooooo ..... not this thread. Any thread but this. AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa ......

[hishoes]

by the rhythm of the life is quicker and quicker,going to shopping every week will waste our so many time,now there is a convenient way to break Free with Traditional shopping--shopping on-line. for example,usually i will go to the www.ant-shopping.com to do some shopping. every night,i just need about ten minutes to see if there are some new items that i like or i need it as a gift. when i drink a cup of coffee,the shopping will be finish,it is very convenient and a bit cheaper. if you need,please try.

[Duncan]

l just don't get people who bitch about my habit when it's well ventilated.

Some people seem really precious about it. I think they've simply got confused. They must be under the impression that smoke is actually nerve gas or something. One whiff and you're dead.

They banned it here (in bars) last summer. I don't smoke but I kind of miss the smell now.

[Matt]

profits at "restaurants, bars, and drinking places" increased by about 7%.Yep. Profits went up.

Like I said, Nuf said.

<end of thread>

[breather]

Hey all, looks like the county is finally starting to take a look at complaints of illegal deck smoking at the George and Dragon in Fremont.
Finally! It's our air and we've a law saying so... don't know why it takes them so long.
Keep the complaints coming here:

http://www.metrokc.gov/health/tobacco/report.htm

gotta love how they bury this link a few clicks in to the county's homepage, I mean hell, if people knew where to complain these guys would have to do their jobs.

Breather

[Meat Weapon]

Hey all, looks like the county is finally starting to take a look at complaints of illegal deck smoking at the George and Dragon in Fremont.
Finally! It's our air and we've a law saying so... don't know why it takes them so long.
Keep the complaints coming here:

http://www.metrokc.gov/health/tobacco/report.htm

gotta love how they bury this link a few clicks in to the county's homepage, I mean hell, if people knew where to complain these guys would have to do their jobs.

Breather

I wish I was a smoker so I could smoke on the deck of the George and Dragon pub while you are there.

[Ballard Pimp]

Some people seem really precious about it. I think they've simply got confused. They must be under the impression that smoke is actually nerve gas or something. One whiff and you're dead.

They banned it here (in bars) last summer. I don't smoke but I kind of miss the smell now.

People who don't smoke get no oral.

[Monkeyfist]

Hey all, looks like the county is finally starting to take a look at complaints of illegal deck smoking at the George and Dragon in Fremont.
Finally! It's our air and we've a law saying so... don't know why it takes them so long.
Keep the complaints coming here:

http://www.metrokc.gov/health/tobacco/report.htm

gotta love how they bury this link a few clicks in to the county's homepage, I mean hell, if people knew where to complain these guys would have to do their jobs.

Breather

Meh, whistle blowing sucks, you should feel ashamed of yourself. Tattle tale. If you don't like it, don't go there, it's that simple. Do you realize how much money you cost the state and the business owner with your little tyrade? Tons, and some of it is my tax dollars. Tax dollars that instead of going to mass process beacause you think thier smoking deck is "Illegal" could be going to programs that actually accomplish somthing good.
If you don't like the proximity of the smoke, get the hell out of there, and go somewhere else. Quit penalizing the owner, the staff, the patrons, and the tax payers for your personal crusade. You think it's fun to pull that kind of crap? To cost people money because you have issues? Get a fucking shrink and spend your own money. Quit reaching into my pockets everytime you don't like something. You probably drive a Lexus don't you?

So really what are you four? Take your toys and go home. I'm tired of you pissing in the sand box.

[Monkeyfist]

"Citizens are often exposed to secondhand smoke in the workplace, and are likely to develop chronic, potentially fatal diseases as a result of such exposure."

Huh? I don't know anyone that smokes inside their workplace, and haven't for a long time... Ludicrisp! Ludicrisp!

[Melle]

There should be a bumper sticker or a t-shirt or something that says:

JUST BECAUSE THE LAW IS ON YOUR SIDE
DOESN'T MEAN YOU HAVE TO BE A DICK.

Seems like scenarios it applies to are becoming more & more common.

[breather]

[QUOTE=Monkeyfist] ... and some of it is my tax dollars.

Sorry Monkeybrain but your tax dollars are there to enforce our laws.

"This ban is your ban, this ban is my ban..."

Sung to the tune of Woody Guthrie's "This Land is Your Land"

[JSin]

[QUOTE=Monkeyfist] ... and some of it is my tax dollars.

Sorry Monkeybrain but your tax dollars are there to enforce our laws.

"This ban is your ban, this ban is my ban..."

Sung to the tune of Woody Guthrie's "This Land is Your Land"

no your tax dollars are there to create a large number of services and support an overbearing Bureaucracy. If they were there to enforce the laws then all we would have are cops and courts.

The proper response to unjust or oppressive laws, aside from violent rebellion, is conscientious objection and resistance. Overwhelm the system until they are incapable of dealing with the violations and find the law unworkable.

The best place to start would likely be in areas that you are most likely to annoy the highest number of militant non smokers while complying with the law.

A good example would be that the enforcement agencies have decided that they cannot fine if you are walking down the street so I recommend walking by all the downtown dining you can carefully blowing your smoke so as to move the highest percentage into the dining area. As long as you are walking you are compliant so you can make several passes.

So Breather when ya going after perfume. This one actually poses a very urgent health problem to many people especially those with asthma and allergies. Not to mention how offensive many older abusers of perfume intrude their habit on me while dining smoking or riding the bus. All fragrances should be banned indoors and within 25 feet of all doors windows and ventilation systems.

JSin

[Ballard Pimp]

Meh, whistle blowing sucks, you should feel ashamed of yourself. Tattle tale. If you don't like it, don't go there, it's that simple.

Just a small comment, MF: This isn't even whistle-blowing. "Whistle-blowing" is when you tell the EPA that your boss ordered you to pour mercury down the toilet and flush hard. Badbreath is so obssessive that s/he goes hunting for violators and rats them out. Most of us gave up that practice in Kindergarten. Maybe Badbreath was home schooled.

[Monkeyfist]

Look mouthbreather, I know it's hard for you to understand. But if your in the owners shoes, which you probably won't ever be, your trying to get as much money in your resturaunt as you can, so you can get it into your pockets. It's simple economics. You create the demand by having food people want to eat, then couple that with an environment to do so.
The best way to foster this kind of environment is to appeal to as many people as possible. That includes people who smoke, and people who don't.
Now when you go "Tell on them" for what you think is an illegal designated smoking area, that takes money away from said owner (or owners), and puts a dent in his wallet. Now if it's a big enough dent, then the resturaunt could close, making it so no one can go there to eat.
So think about that the next time you get all excited like the kid in the after school special that just own the big race. Also consider the fact that encroaching upon other peoples vices is a good way to ensue a repoutation that will get you no where when entering said establishment. Also then the city will dig deeper into the establishment just to "Make and example" of them, and try to exploit every violation to suck dollars out of them to geive themselves fat raises.

My tax dollars aren't for your ban, and it was never mine. If I didn't like smoke, I went to non-smoking establishments.
My tax dollars, had I a choice, would be going to arts and music programs in schools, road repair, lowering the fees associated with parks and trail usage in outlying areas of King and Snohomish county, and bettering out public transportaion system. Not your beligerently self-serving crusade.

[breather]

umm, Monkeybrain, forcing someone to close if they refuse to comply with our clean indoor air laws would be a positive outcome in my book.

A more discerning reader would also note that my posts aren't meant to convince you people of anything but rather to bust balls and incite like-minded readers to action.

I get the impression that you are actually trying to convince me of something and the very idea is as amusing as the attempt itself.

Keep it coming though!

[freikja]

Hey all, looks like the county is finally starting to take a look at complaints of illegal deck smoking at the George and Dragon in Fremont.
Finally! It's our air and we've a law saying so... don't know why it takes them so long.
Keep the complaints coming here:

http://www.metrokc.gov/health/tobacco/report.htm

gotta love how they bury this link a few clicks in to the county's homepage, I mean hell, if people knew where to complain these guys would have to do their jobs.

Breather

Last summer, within a week, three Fremont businesses that had allowed smoking in their open outdoor areas abruptly either disallowed it, or limited their smoking area to a different one further away from the front door. All claimed some woman had come in and threatened to call the cops if they didn't change their policy. All are businesses that have been there for years, and bring a great deal of customer service, loyalty, and good business to the area.

l'm guessing you might be this person, and wonder if you have even frequented these places and gotten to know those who run them. Because l have and do. Not only do l seriously fucking resent your efforts to shut down the George and Dragon as a patron, you're on my shit list because l know the owners, and they are my friends. Be happy that the smoking ban went through--that was a far bigger deal than this piddly shit. The businesses DO suffer financially because of stupid shit like what you're doing; you're fucking with livelihoods simply because they're trying to at least accommodate the long-term regulars who do smoke so they don't lose them as paying customers (and outnumber the nonsmokers by a long shot). And you know, oddly, nobody else who frequents the place and is fully aware of the fact that they allow smoking on their decks seems to give a flying fuck. l'm guessing you're not only the vigilante hell-bent on ruining half of the Fremont business owners, you're probably the only one on such a crusade.

Please, fuck off. These are good, hardworking people trying to keep their businesses afloat. As someone else pointed out, if you don't like it, then don't go there. l doubt you do anyway, and are just cleaning shop throughout each neighborhood. There are plenty of places you can patronize that fit your criteria; l suggest you check them out. Especially since the cops don't seem especially bothered by these businesses and have better things to do.

Oh, and at least two of those places has your description and a standing 86 order for disruption should you show up again.

By the way, do you actually have any evidence that anyone gives a crap about shutting down the George, or did you pull that out of your ass? Because l don't see any evidence of that fact in the link you posted, which merely takes you to a complaint page.

[freikja]

umm, Monkeybrain, forcing someone to close if they refuse to comply with our clean indoor air laws would be a positive outcome in my book.

The decks are OUTSIDE, you asshole.

[freikja]

They banned it here (in bars) last summer. I don't smoke but I kind of miss the smell now.

Wow. England's the one place l wouldn't have guessed would ever have a ban. Then again, so is Holland.

As for the smell, l miss it too. Especially since all the other noxious body scents we're now forced to endure rank way higher on the nastiness scale.

[Meat Weapon]

Especially since all the other noxious body scents we're now forced to endure rank way higher on the nastiness scale.

Not to Seattle busy-bodies who enjoy the smell of their own farts.

Thanks to them, we have new laws to break. Fun!

[freikja]

Not to Seattle busy-bodies who enjoy the smell of their own farts.

Which is slightly ironic at the George and Dragon, which is a British pub. But l don't disagree. l basically think it's not so much that they enjoy the smell off their own farts, they're either making a political statement, are pussies and just cropdust instead of having the decency to spare others the privilege. Or (d) all of the above. l vote (d).

[Smalan Ithee]

...aren't meant to convince you peopleAnyone who would post using the phrase "you people" is an idiot.
And you know, oddly, nobody else who frequents the place and is fully aware of the fact that they allow smoking on their decks seems to give a flying fuck.And that's the case w/ most establishments that still silently allow smoking on their decks. It's only the tattletale meter-maid shouldabeens who are griping.
Oh, and at least two of those places has your description and a standing 86 order for disruption should you show up again.That's fucking awesome. Please PM me and I will gladly visit those businesses, if I don't already.

[Ballard Pimp]

Ah, c'mon, Mouthbreather. You can tell us whether you were home schooled.

[JSin]

Ah, c'mon, Mouthbreather. You can tell us whether you were home schooled.

Nope my vote is against home schooled... My guess is Home fucked.... BTW Breather tell dad he owes me 15.00 for the drinks he lost on the tables at the Dragon and he owes me Half a pack.

JSin

[freikja]

And that's the case w/ most establishments that still silently allow smoking on their decks. It's only the tattletale meter-maid shouldabeens who are griping.

And as l said to you in my PM, it's not likely any of these places will get shut down. Given that the majority at each place are smokers, the spillover into the street/parking lots/sidewalks would be mayhem, and that's a big part of why the cops haven't really cared to enforce the rule. Not that the businesses would be able to enforce it on busy nights. They have bigger fish to fry than patrolling their decks and kicking out all the smokers. And if those people paid to get in, assault by drunken patrons would probably be likely.

[Monkeyfist]

umm, Monkeybrain, forcing someone to close if they refuse to comply with our clean indoor air laws would be a positive outcome in my book.

A more discerning reader would also note that my posts aren't meant to convince you people of anything but rather to bust balls and incite like-minded readers to action.

I get the impression that you are actually trying to convince me of something and the very idea is as amusing as the attempt itself.

Keep it coming though!

I'm not trying to convince you of anything Mouthbreather. I just don't like your ilk. Busy body protagonists that have nothing better to do other than interfere with the well being of people that are working, paying bills, getting by.
Lets say for arguments sake you report the resturant. You get them fined, the people that work there and the owner have to endure the brunt of your actions, thus in turn the patrons have to deal with it via higher prices to compensate for the fine. Is it that hard to understand?

Also, didn't you say it was an "Outdoor" smoking area?

[Mr Sparkly Pants]

Back in the early 80s I was at a little house party near campus. A few drinks, some doobies, this kind of thing. At one point my friend Bob and I realized that we were in the kitchen alone and began taking a looky-loo through the cupboards. We found a large can of tuna, took it home and made sandwiches, then came back to the party.

[breather]

I'm not trying to convince you of anything .....
.....Lets say for arguments sake you report the resturant. You get them fined, the people that work there and the owner have to endure the brunt of your actions, thus in turn the patrons have to deal with it via higher prices to compensate for the fine. Is it that hard to understand?



A thing of beauty, that!!

Seriously folks, no one will get closed down here. The George will get hammered into compliance and then be an excellent example, perhaps even an advocate, for leveling the playing field, in other words, getting other bars into compliance so that they're not at a disadvantage.
And then we can all enjoy the decks and patios.

[Monkeyfist]

A thing of beauty, that!!

Seriously folks, no one will get closed down here. The George will get hammered into compliance and then be an excellent example, perhaps even an advocate, for leveling the playing field, in other words, getting other bars into compliance so that they're not at a disadvantage.
And then we can all enjoy the decks and patios.
W3rd, guess you got me there.
Still doesn't change facts that I raised, and that you avoided. Being shut down is worse case scenario of course, fines however, so are you to deem them in need of being "Hammered into Compliance"?
You raise the prices in doing so none the less beings the proprieter's still need to compensate for A. The fines, and B. the slack in clientel. Increasing food costs will drive other customers away, and so on and so on.
You missed the point to prove your an ass. Bang up job you did...

[freikja]

A thing of beauty, that!!

Seriously folks, no one will get closed down here. The George will get hammered into compliance and then be an excellent example, perhaps even an advocate, for leveling the playing field, in other words, getting other bars into compliance so that they're not at a disadvantage.

Now l know you don't frequent the place. Are you bloody mad?
The George and Dragon owners will never fucking get hammered into compliance; if you knew them or anything about their bar, you'd know that. (Also, the cops don't fuck with them much because they're extremely well-behaved when it comes to bar fights) And advocate? HA. HAHAHAH. You are so fucking with the wrong people. They won't roll over to one person's little vendetta, and if they ever find out who you are, well, it should be a blast. Like hangings in the square, but with free liquor.

And then we can all enjoy the decks and patios.

You can try with about 100 angry Brits, Aussies, Scots, lrishmen, and a few Europeans gleefully volunteering to kick your ass. See, this is a family place you're talking about; we all stick together. l'll be there with popcorn and a bottle of Glenlivet. Have at it.

[shredderwench]

Sounds like fun to me!!

I checked at the George and Dragon last night and its smoker heaven on the deck with smoke blowing in the door.

I gathered signatures for I-901, the smokefree bars initiative and this shit is GOING TO STOP!!

Complain here, http://www.metrokc.gov/health/tobacco/report.htm

I just did and am now looking for that newspaper columnist who wrote about the ban a couple weeks back. Times or PI, anyone remember? PM me or post it here if you do.

And keep the complaints coming, this is how we got a few other places into line.

[Smalan Ithee]

I checked at the George and Dragon last night and its smoker heaven on the deck with smoke blowing in the door."Checked at" = drove by, didn't stop in, didn't have a drink = not a paying customer = busybody = G&D could give a shit less. It might be different if you fucking Bobby Brady school hall monitor safety patrol dimwits were actually patrons of the bars you bitch about; if you bought drinks and actually supported the business. But you don't. You drive by and tattletale. I swear to jeebus I'd pay good money, and donate it to the American Cancer Society, if you actually made a stink (ha! get it? a stink!) on the patio or to the owners. Now THAT would be fun.

I gathered signatures for I-901, the smokefree bars initiative and this shit is GOING TO STOP!!(in Cartman voice) It's WRONG. It's WROOOOONG. It's wroooooooooooooooooooong.
am now looking for that newspaper columnist who wrote about the ban a couple weeks back. Times or PI, anyone remember? PM me or post it here if you do.Seriously? You took the time to gather signatures for bullshit legislation, but you won't take the time to enter a search term on a site? Not just a busybody but an entitled busybody!

this is how we got a few other places into line.You haven't got shit in line, shredder/matt/breather.

[Melle]

I gathered signatures for I-901, the smokefree bars initiative and this shit is GOING TO STOP!!


Yep, definitely the former playground tattletale.

[shredderwench]

Your a bitter dude Samalan Ithee!! Bummer.

I did go in the George and even got in (sort of) on a quiz team cuz it was quiz night. I had some drinks and plan to go back for the quizzes, they're pretty cool.


So while searching for the articles that Mr. Ithee sooo wants to see (we know you looked them up Smal :) ) I found this gem of a letter from the guy who owns the Blue Moon and swore he would sell the joint if the ban passed:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/367220_ltrs17.html

Goofy letter but this guy would be fun to do shots with!!!

Here's a PI article on the subject which I hadn't seen and it seems that if you raise the issue with the owner you might get the boot:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/366908_smoking13.html

and here's the one that I actually had in mind:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/jamieson/372966_robert31.html

We've got work to do people!!
Here's where to log complaints, http://www.metrokc.gov/health/tobacco/report.htm
they will eventually have an effect, it's how we nailed the Doghouse in Everett and that mexican restaurant in Bellingham in the montha after the ban passed.

[meherenowie]

employees said smokers and nonsmokers seem to have reached detente over lighting up outside.
Heaven forfend. Bletterstench has to justify its empty existence beyond the paperpushin.

[JSin]

<snip litiny of abuse of smoker's rights>.

So what have you done to help us poor addicts stop. It seems the state made an agreement with big tobacco which makes it so I can't sue. So now I can't sue to make the $ I need to get the Chantix I need to quit. Ya know so I don't stench up your joints n all.

Oh wait I git it. Treat the symptoms not the problem. Punish Punish Punish

Oh BTW Air pollution is mostly comprised of auto emissions. The link between those chems is far stronger than second hand smoke. So what do ya drive???

JSin

[Duncan]

We've got work to do people!!
Here's where to log complaints, http://www.metrokc.gov/health/tobacco/report.htm
they will eventually have an effect, it's how we nailed the Doghouse in Everett and that mexican restaurant in Bellingham in the montha after the ban passed.

It's good to know that people are working ceaselessly to make sure not a particle of smoke blows in a door. Thank God they have chosen to work for such a key cause, rather than any of the lesser ones like, erm, peace in the Middle East or pretty much anything.

[Smalan Ithee]

Your a bitter dude Samalan Ithee!! Bummer.Got me there. I am one bitter dude. Yup, indeed. Bitterly bitter dude-ish dude.

So while searching for the articles that Mr. Ithee sooo wants to see (we know you looked them up Smal :) )Actually, Mr. Smithee here read it and the pages of comments online that followed when it was origially printed way back whenever. Smiley icon with teeth, thumbs up icon. No searching needed, my memory's not that bad. Glad you got off your ass and found it yourself, though. Even though it took time away from trumping up ridiculous tattletale reports to the health dept. Be proud!

they will eventually have an effect, it's how we nailed the Doghouse in Everett and that mexican restaurant in Bellingham in the montha after the ban passed.Those are your conquests? I'm laughing even harder now. Keep fighting the good fight in the monthas aahead.

[Melle]

Here's where to log complaints, http://www.metrokc.gov/health/tobacco/report.htm
they will eventually have an effect, it's how we nailed the Doghouse in Everett and that mexican restaurant in Bellingham in the montha after the ban passed.

Word!

Fight tha power, motherfucker!

[Matt]

"Checked at" = drove by, didn't stop in, didn't have a drink = not a paying customer = busybodyYeah, so if I drive by a bar and see a gang raping a woman through the window and I call the police, I’m a busybody. Yeah. In order to report a violation of the law, I have to first go in, sit down, drink a beer or two and THEN let the cops know a woman is being raped. Yeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaah.

You're stupid, Smellen.

People who enforce the law should be applauded. Thank you, breather and shredderwench!! You guys rock! And thanks for the reminder about the complaint site. I will be sure to use it. Thanks!!!!

Yep, definitely the former playground tattletale.Translation: If you enforce a law I like, you’re justified. If you enforce a law I don’t like, you’re a tattletale.

I forgot how easy it was to demolish your “arguments.” You piece of crap.

So what have you done to help us poor addicts stop.Bwaaaaahaaaaa!!!! What demented and twisted part of your brain thinks it’s the responsibility of nonsmokers to help stupid motherfucking retarded bad-smelling addicts like Melle the bitch get off the nicotine ride?? Why don’t you be a big boy, take responsibility for yourself, and solve your own dumbass problems? Dumbass!

Newsflash: We don’t give a flying fuck about you dumbass smokers!!!! The smoking ban is for OUR health, not yours. And we won!!!!!!! Yeeeehaaaa!!!!!

Glad I could be here for you.

<end of thread>

[freikja]

found this gem of a letter from the guy who owns the Blue Moon and swore he would sell the joint if the ban passed:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opini...220_ltrs17.html

Um. There's not a single mention of him "swearing to sell the joint" there.

Here's a PI article on the subject which I hadn't seen and it seems that if you raise the issue with the owner you might get the boot:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/366908_smoking13.html

Didn't l already say that? l wasn't pulling 86es out of my ass.

"I will be back," vowed Meg Dalton in one of the heated e-mails she and John Bayliss, owner of Fremont's English-style The George & Dragon Pub, have exchanged for weeks about smoking on the bar's deck. Bayliss, during the argument, had banned Dalton from his establishment."

Hey, smart man.
Yo, Meg? Meg, is that you, you crazy bitch? Did you bribe the asylum security with meds again? Or is that Carrie Nation's angry, self-righteous ghost buzzing? Maybe you two teamed up? Like a little Exorcist action? Yeah, l think that's it.

We've got work to do people!!
Here's where to log complaints, http://www.metrokc.gov/health/tobacco/report.htm
they will eventually have an effect, it's how we nailed the Doghouse in Everett and that mexican restaurant in Bellingham in the montha after the ban passed.

Cops in Bellingham and Everett have nothing better to do than enforce stupid shit like that. This ain't likely to happen in Seattle. Sorry.

[freikja]

Yeah, so if I drive by a bar and see a gang raping a woman through the window and I call the police, I’m a busybody.

What a ridiculously odd leap of logic. You seriously think you have an upper hand with a rape vs. smoking argument? You must be smoking crack.


I forgot how easy it was to demolish your “arguments.” You piece of crap.

That's hilarious.

Newsflash: We don’t give a flying fuck about you dumbass smokers!!!!

And what of the mothers, fathers, and children who rely on their thriving businesses? Are they just casualties in your jihad?

[Matt]

And what of the mothers, fathers, and children who rely on their thriving businesses? I couldn't care less. 901 was about protecting nonsmokers. We won.

However, let me note that when they banned smoking in movie theaters, banks, and offices a few decades ago, there probably was some dumbass who said, with a tear in her eye, "But . . . but . . . what about all the movie theater owners, and bankers, and office managers who rely on their thriving businesses? Whaaaaa!!!"

They survived. (And, if a few didn't, who gives a shit. Pretty stupid to "rely" on smokers anyway. Bad business decision. GOOD RIDDANCE!) And the whines from smokers soon dissipated into the wind. Just like yours will. You'll get used to it. (Cuz, yaknow, the ban's permanent. N'kay?)

And, finally (drumroll), your entire assumption that owners will lose their businesses is bullshit. Income for bars went up 20 percent last year. That indicates that the ban has been GOOD for business. Ooops, sorry to throw some facts on your whine fire. And in many cases, nonsmokers are taking the place of the lame-ass (and EXTREMELY smelly) dumbass smokers.

901 has been FANTASTIC for businesses. Your alleged concern for bar owners is noted but misplaced.

SLAM!!!!

[Melle]

However, let me note that when they banned smoking in movie theaters, banks, and offices a few decades ago, there probably was some dumbass who said, with a tear in her eye, "But . . . but . . . what about all the movie theater owners, and bankers, and office managers who rely on their thriving businesses? Whaaaaa!!!"

Yeah? Probably not. I think those businesses banned it themselves.

And, finally (drumroll), your entire assumption that owners will lose their businesses is bullshit. Income for bars went up 20 percent last year. That indicates that the ban has been GOOD for business. Ooops, sorry to throw some facts on your whine fire. And in many cases, nonsmokers are taking the place of the lame-ass (and EXTREMELY smelly) dumbass smokers.

You're full of shit, and you know it.

As I pointed out here (http://forums.thestranger.com/showpost.php?p=76232&postcount=2350) over a month ago, the 20% figure is totally misleading since it's a measure of gross profit, not net profit. I know you're not good with figures, Matt, so I'll explain this to you: Gross profit is earnings before subtracting expenses. If your baker has to pay a dime more for ingredients per loaf of bread because of inflation, and he charges you a dime more for the loaf, his gross profit has increased by a dime but his actual net profit hasn't budged.

The last few years have seen massive inflation, so it's inevitable that gross profits have risen sharply. But the net profit for bars and restaurants has only increased by 7%, which is the average rate of increase for all retail of all kinds. This certainly doesn't indicate that smoking bans have been particularly good for business. Especially since these figures only show 2007 vs. 2006: the ban was in effect both these years. These aren't pre-ban vs. post-ban numbers, and it's deceptive to pretend they are.

What's really pathetic is, I pointed this out to you just over a month ago, & you replied "So! yeah! Like I said! Profits have gone up!" Never mind that they've gone up about one-third as much as you'd claimed. I let it go, but here you are touting the 20% claim again. You're just a shameless bullshitter.

[Matt]

the net profit for bars and restaurants has . . . increased by 7%That is great!! Profits have gone UP!!!

Like I said, 901 has been a boon for businesses.

Almost as good is the fact that the whining has decreased exponentially. We had tons of people at the beginning, telling us the sky would fall. But, now, you hardly hear a peep anymore. People are getting used to it, just like people got used to smoke-free movie theaters and grocery stores. In fact, most bar and restaurant employees are happy about it. Their clothes don't reek anymore. Their hair doesn't reek anymore. They're not inhaling cigarette-based carcinogens (a known Class A cancer-causing agent). Owners don't have to waste money on expensive (and ineffective) air cleaners. They don't have to clean the place so often. Less danger of fire. Profits are up.

I mean, really, you'd have to be a moron to be against the smoking ban.

[Monkeyfist]

Your a bitter dude Samalan Ithee!! Bummer.

I did go in the George and even got in (sort of) on a quiz team cuz it was quiz night. I had some drinks and plan to go back for the quizzes, they're pretty cool.


So while searching for the articles that Mr. Ithee sooo wants to see (we know you looked them up Smal :) ) I found this gem of a letter from the guy who owns the Blue Moon and swore he would sell the joint if the ban passed:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/367220_ltrs17.html

Goofy letter but this guy would be fun to do shots with!!!

Here's a PI article on the subject which I hadn't seen and it seems that if you raise the issue with the owner you might get the boot:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/366908_smoking13.html

and here's the one that I actually had in mind:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/jamieson/372966_robert31.html

We've got work to do people!!
Here's where to log complaints, http://www.metrokc.gov/health/tobacco/report.htm
they will eventually have an effect, it's how we nailed the Doghouse in Everett and that mexican restaurant in Bellingham in the montha after the ban passed.

Hey whistlestop willie,
Nice of you to check in! Are you the smoker police? So you are one of those mofo's that is on the "Crusade".
If you don't like smoke, go to places that don't encourage that behavior.
Why is this so hard to figure out? I am completely unclear why this message doesn't get into your heads.
I personally could give a fuck less about your health, or your well being. Sounds selfish huh? But you know what I don't know you, you never paid my bills, you never put dinner on my table, we don't share DNA, and you never bought me a Miles Davis album.
All you have done is caused people to have to raise prices on thier food, stiffen the amount of tips the waitstaff get, and create more strain on blue collar jobs. People that honestly have to "Work" for a living. You, you are causing stress on people that are trying to get by, bring in business, take home money. Think about that.
If you dodge my point it only proves that you have no foot to stand on. Just because it's a law, that doesn't necasarily make it correct. There used to be a law that if you were married, on your wedding day the lord of your area got to sleep with your life. It was his "Blessing" on you house.

[Matt]

If you don't like smoke, go to places that don't encourage that behavior.This is a moot point. Smoking is prohibited in public places, therefore nonsmokers don't have to worry about it anymore.

I personally could give a fuck less about your health, or your well being.Like the chick in Young Frankenstein said: "The feeling is mutual!" Having said that, it's irrelevant. 901 passed in a landslide. It doesn't matter if you care. You are now prevented from doing that which you don't care about doing. N'kay?

All you have done is caused people to have to raise prices on thier food, stiffen the amount of tips the waitstaff get, and create more strain on blue collar jobs.Oh, I don't care. 901 passed. Nonsmokers won. I couldn't care less how many people lose their job. But, of course, no one has lost their job. As I've already noted, bar income went up 20 percent in the past year. So no one is losing their job. You certainly can't name a single bar that has gone out of business as a direct result of the ban.

Just because it's a law, that doesn't necasarily make it correct. There used to be a law that if you were married, on your wedding day the lord of your area got to sleep with your wife.Wow, I think you should win for "Most Whacky Analogy of the Week." But, in response, I would just point out that I'd have no problem with such a law. In fact, I would be honored to have Mayor Greg Nickels nail my wife. I would gladly raise Mr. Nickels' love child as my own. Nickels has always been in favor of 901 and protecting the health of nonsmokers. Therefore, he is my home boy.

<end of thread>

[Monkeyfist]

Not to nit pick so much, but your 20% quotion was debunked moons ago Matt.
Simply put, if you don't care about the businesses you patronize, then why worry about their smoking policies. We get it 901 passed. Now that is just a backdrop being used for personal reasons it would seem. Not N'Kay, that's abuse of policy.

[Smalan Ithee]

Wow, I think you should win for "Most Whacky Analogy of the Week."No, that would be you with this gem:
Yeah, so if I drive by a bar and see a gang raping a woman through the window and I call the police, I’m a busybody. Yeah. In order to report a violation of the law, I have to first go in, sit down, drink a beer or two and THEN let the cops know a woman is being raped.And then you raise the douchebag bar with:
In fact, I would be honored to have Mayor Greg Nickels nail my wife.Somebody's got some issues with the ladies. HUGE surprise.

[Monkeyfist]

Wow, I think you should win for "Most Whacky Analogy of the Week." But, in response, I would just point out that I'd have no problem with such a law. In fact, I would be honored to have Mayor Greg Nickels nail my wife. I would gladly raise Mr. Nickels' love child as my own. Nickels has always been in favor of 901 and protecting the health of nonsmokers. Therefore, he is my home boy.

<end of thread>
Now I see. So your a Nickels supporter. So you are also supporting the crippling of Seattle's night life, and all ages venues? So you support more development to cripple local businesses? And line the pockets of seedy land owners that would see fit to come here and buy up territory, turn it into half-assed condo's to be sold at an astronomically huge price? So your an elitist then? Well at least your honest about it right?
Would you like me to point out what bars have fallen under his reign? Let me start with...

The Colourbox, Club Killamanjaro, The Weathered Wall (?), Area 51, The Sit and Spin, The Velvet Elvis, and a ton more. These are pre-ban of course. It's due to his precious Teen Dance Ordinance.
His smoking ban, well I don't mind not smoking in the bar, honestly I don't. It's negative Nancies and and Boo Hoo Bobbies such as yourself that cry wolf when you think the deck that smoking is allowed on is a means to get your flag out and start screaming your tyrannical rants.
But the fact that you like that guy? Disgusting. He's a pig, and a greedy little one at that.

[Monkeyfist]

Wait a second, did you actually equate rape and smoking?!? Fuck you they're not even close to the same!!! And if you try to contend that they are you belong inside Fairfax Bellevue! With that I leave you all to the facist minds of Matt, Wench, and and the Mouth Breather...
Not to mention, while your tattletailing, inundating our already over worked police force, you could be distracting them from stopping a rape, or responding to a severe crime being reported. Because you drove by and think you saw some people in the prximity of the door that violates whatever...
You Sir are fucking clown shoes! I'm bringin' it back people!

[freikja]

I couldn't care less. 901 was about protecting nonsmokers. We won.

Not all bar owners are smokers, and nor are their family members. That makes them one of you.

However, let me note that when they banned smoking in movie theaters, banks, and offices a few decades ago, there probably was some dumbass who said, with a tear in her eye, "But . . . but . . . what about all the movie theater owners, and bankers, and office managers who rely on their thriving businesses? Whaaaaa!!!"

Not really. Because that left us bars and restaurants while you conservatives kept your banks, theaters and offices. Good riddance.

Pretty stupid to "rely" on smokers anyway.

We're smoking tobacco; hell, we're not even doing it inside anymore. We're not huffing gasoline and setting buildings on fire. Jesus. Dramatic much?

And the whines from smokers soon dissipated into the wind. Just like yours will. You'll get used to it. (Cuz, yaknow, the ban's permanent. N'kay?)

First off, you pretentious second-class prick, don't ever 'nkay' me. l'm willing to bet that you're also a second-grader, and you don't nkay someone older than you. lt's tacky.

Secondly, allow me to let you in on something. The large majority of smokers are pretty realistic. We all know full the choice to smoke is our own, and as past and current history of this puritanical little culture indicates, there will probably be rules that enforce where and when that can happen. We vote on it, and sometimes we lose. That is the reality of the situation. We get it. But we're not talking about that, see, we're discussing aspects that your shrimp brain just can't quite wrap itself around. So you're more than welcome to take on people smarter than you, but we're way ahead of you, because we know what we're talking about, and you don't.

And, finally (drumroll), your entire assumption that owners will lose their businesses is bullshit. Income for bars went up 20 percent last year. That indicates that the ban has been GOOD for business. Ooops, sorry to throw some facts on your whine fire. And in many cases, nonsmokers are taking the place of the lame-ass (and EXTREMELY smelly) dumbass smokers.

Melle covered this. And before you get all giddy about that remaining seven percent, check your facts. At the going rate in current economy, 7% is average inflation. lt's not actual profit, twit. The George and Dragon had to raise the price of their pints by a dollar to cover the losses as well as the rising costs. Since you seem to be a little slow, that means they couldn't afford to keep their beer cheap because they weren't profiting after the costs of keeping the business afloat. Another way of putting it simply is: 'Costs' greater than or equal to 'lncome' = 'Zero Profit'.


Your alleged concern for bar owners is noted but misplaced.

Make no mistake, roach, this isn't 'alleged' concern. These are my friends. lf their livelihoods are affected, so is mine. This makes you my enemy. The smoking ban has nothing to fucking do with it. This is personal.

SLAM!!!!

This is funnier than that time l was leaning over to wipe my nephew's nose and my boob popped out.

[Melle]

Wait a second, did you actually equate rape and smoking?!? Fuck you they're not even close to the same!!! And if you try to contend that they are you belong inside Fairfax Bellevue! With that I leave you all to the facist minds of Matt, Wench, and and the Mouth Breather...

It's really pretty hilarious. You couldn't write better satire:

- "Smoking = rape!"

- "I don't care about destroying jobs, I don't care about your health, I'm badass super-callous---but I care obsessively about people smoking on an outdoor patio."

- "The ban has been unbelieveably good for business ... but when a bar steps out of line, we have to immediately 'level the playing field' for some reason."

Oh yeah---and Matt's ceaseless repetition of the misleading 20% claim is utterly typical. No discussion is possible with this guy. He's a broken record.

[fiona]

your still a fucktwit breather and now that i know about the gorge i'm spending my money there. i sat under there no smoking sign and smoked last night WITH EVERYFUCKINGONE ELSE!!!!!

[Melle]

your still a fucktwit breather and now that i know about the gorge i'm spending my money there. i sat under there no smoking sign and smoked last night WITH EVERYFUCKINGONE ELSE!!!!!

Oh yeah, everyone who's relatively new to the Smoking Ban thread: Meet Fiona. She's another fake person. (A smoker; VERY dumb; get it?)

I suppose the rest of the gang will be coming around again. The names I remember are "Gres05," "Ballardguy," "Bridge Troll," and "Smokie." These people are all fake.

[Melle]

... I'd have no problem with such a law. In fact, I would be honored to have Mayor Greg Nickels nail my wife. I would gladly raise Mr. Nickels' love child as my own. Nickels has always been in favor of 901 and protecting the health of nonsmokers. Therefore, he is my home boy.


Wow. OK. I've spent the last 2 1/2 years wondering if this Matt guy can really be serious.

But right here he goes just a hair beyond "over the top." Well, it had to end sometime.

Matt, you are very good at what you do. 2 1/2 fucking years! That is quite impressive. As with "KittenComputerGoddess," I pretty much bought it. So did most everyone else.

Well done.

[Matt]

Not to nit pick so much, but your 20% quotion was debunked moons ago Matt.No it wasn't. It's a fact that income went up 20 percent last year. Fact. Now what SMelle did was whine because he doesn't like that statistic and thought that another statistic was more meaningful. So he didn't "debunk" anything. In fact, he proved my point. Profits are up. That you dumbasses refuse to accept that reality is another indicator of your dumbassedness.

Simply put, if you don't care about the businesses you patronize.Who said we don't patronize them? I just said that if they break the law, then I don't care if they go out of business. It would be great if they obeyed the law, so I could keep patronizing them, but I put THE LAW above personal preference.

That YOU don't care about obeying the law is an abuse of citizenship. N'kay?

[Matt]

It's negative Nancies and and Boo Hoo Bobbies such as yourself that cry wolf when you think the deck that smoking is allowed on is a means to get your flag out and start screaming your tyrannical rants.Huh? I don't get a flag out. I use black "901 Enforcer" balloons, mofo. Where the hell have you been? Even dumbass Melle knows that.

[Matt]

Not really. Because that left us bars and restaurants while you conservatives kept your banks, theaters and offices. Good riddance.Umm, sweet pumpkin? You don't have the bars and restaurants anymore. This will sink in eventually. Just relax. Have a glass of water. No smoking in bars anymore. N'kay?

Oh, and conservative? Giggle. Can someone tell freakho that the vast majority of conservatives love Big Tobacco and are opposed to smoking bans, while the vast majority of liberals support smoking bans. Sheesh.

Melle covered this.And I covered Melle covering this.

[Melle]

Even dumbass Melle knows that.

That's right.

Matt runs around the Seattle bar scene with black 901 balloons when he's not pimping his wife to Mayor Nickels!

Smoking is rape!

901 has increased bar business by 2000%!

This is really kinda good stuff. Not as good as the time I went on an anti-smoker's website and complained about the movie The Shining because Shelley Duvall smoked in front of her son ("and to make matters worse, the boy's father wasn't a great parent either---but at least he didn't smoke!"), and no one saw the irony.

Not that good, but it's pretty good.

[Melle]

Oh, and conservative? Giggle. Can someone tell freakho that the vast majority of conservatives love Big Tobacco and are opposed to smoking bans, while the vast majority of liberals support smoking bans. Sheesh.

Just in case anyone believes this, I found an interesting article on the subject by someone calling themselves the Stogie Guys (http://blogcritics.org/archives/2006/11/21/013252.php). If I may quote:



It's a common perception — or, I should say, misperception — that those who favor smoking restrictions are "liberals." Sure, some of them are. But the truth is that the issue, like most, is not so simple.

Name a group that's been officially opposed to tobacco for decades. How about the Southern Baptist Convention, which, according to its Web site, adopted a measure in 1984 that calls for, among numerous other actions, taking “leadership in encouraging our people, pastors, and SBC leaders to refrain from using tobacco in any form …”

Or look at the states with fairly extensive bans. Sure, you'll find Massachusetts and New York. But you'll also find Utah and Idaho. And Florida, where voters have chosen Republicans for nearly every statewide office for quite a while – including George W. Bush's brother as governor twice – approved an extremely restrictive smoking restriction.

Which governor said the overwhelming majority of residents in his state “don't want to have someone else impose their habit upon them, whether it's spitting or whether it's vomiting or whether it's smoking”? And also said he'd support a ban on all cigarette sales in his state? Arkansas Republican Mike Huckabee, according to news reports. He's also known for this quote: “The country was better off with Leave it to Beaver than Beavis and Butthead. We were better off when the Gideons gave Bibles to the fifth graders than when school nurses gave condoms to the sixth graders. We thought it was better for fathers to take their sons hunting than sons in urban areas hunting for their fathers.”

Even in California, often associated with liberal nanny-staters eager to take away smoking rights, it isn't as black and white as that. Among the first communities that moved to ban smoking on beaches and piers were those in Orange County, where, I believe, the last Democratic presidential candidate to win a majority was FDR — before WWII.

[Matt]

Oh yeah---and Matt's ceaseless repetition of the misleading 20% claim is utterly typical.As I've repeatedly noted, the 20% fact is just that: a fact. And you know it. Please stop lying.

He's a broken record.Translation: When Melle says the same thing over and over, he's "consistent." When Matt does the same thing, "he's a broken record."

Yawn.

[Melle]

As I've repeatedly noted, the 20% fact is just that: a fact. And you know it. Please stop lying.

Translation: When Melle says the same thing over and over, he's "consistent." When Matt does the same thing, "he's a broken record."

Yawn.

Seriously, dude. Respect.

You're the Pavarotti of annoyingness. It's a gift. I see that now.

[Matt]

your still a fucktwit breather and now that i know about the gorge i'm spending my money there. i sat under there no smoking sign and smoked last night WITH EVERYFUCKINGONE ELSE!!!!!Fiona? Fiona???? Is that really you?? Wow, what a blast from the past!

I sure missed you. I always admired your posts. Fiona, do you know of any other bars that violate the ban? All I need is just the names and general locations. I'm just curious. I won't narc on them or anything. I just think it's cool to know where cool people like you hang out. Thanks.

Meet Fiona. She's another fake person. That was uncalled for. Fiona is not fake. To prove that, she will give me the names of at least three violators.

[Matt]

901 has increased bar business by 2000%! This is really kinda good stuff.I never said that. So, once again, Melle is debating with a figment of his imagination. It's both interesting and sad to witness.

Btw, I was kidding about the Nickels bit. Hey, Melle, here's $10, go buy a sense of humor. Oh, but you probably won't. You'll instead buy some cancer sticks (how much they cost nowadays? gettin real expensive, huh? -snort-).

Not as good as the time I went on an anti-smoker's website and complained about the movie The ShiningOh dude! The Shining is one of the best horror movies ever! I love the music that accompanies the opening credits. And the way the camera keeps catching up to the car. Fantastic directing. The symmetry and atmosphere inside the hotel. "When my wife tried to stop me from doing my duty, I . . . corrected her." AWESOME!!! It's a masterpiece. But, yes, I would have removed the smoking part. Not essential to the plot.

What kills me is that Stephen King apparently didn't like the Kubrick version. WTF! Instead, King later made some lame-ass sugary version, which has the corniest and pussiest ending I've ever seen. Kubrick's movie is the version for adults. King's is the version for pussies, toddlers, and Melles.

But I appear to have digressed.

Seriously, folks. Why are we still debating this? It's over. It's permanent. Do you fucking get that?? You're wasting your time. Try to get a life, for Jesus Christ's sake. Move on. You're pathetic. You sicken me.

<end of thread> --- and this time I mean it.

[Melle]

Seriously, folks. Why are we still debating this? It's over. It's permanent.

And what's more, you don't even care! Don't forget that part.