New Orleans

[firedemon]

Rape, Murder, and looting in the city streets with the temp @95 and 99 percent humidity. Bodies floating, babies floating, dogs electricuted in power lines while the steets are 12 feet deep. Let me ask ya somethin' Seattle, you're a pretty educated city, I just moved here from there and if you were the President what would you do? Exactly

K Magnum

[K_info]

...perhaps properly implementing an emergency plan, rather than watching people die, would be a start.

[firedemon]

For a large group of hungry, hot , and uneducated people. What emergency plan do you speak of?

[Rain Monkey]

Well, this emergency plan:

http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/newsrelated/incaseofemrgencyexercise.htm

The most crucial part of the task of emergency response is emergency preparedness; those preparations made in advance.

And part of emergency preparedness is to expect the unexpected. So the way that smart people from Seattle would have done it different would include the following:

- Keep the state National Guard units at home, well trained and well equipped to respond to real and immediate threats to Americans.

- Have a comprehensive environmental and energy plan for the last twenty-five years, since the Carter administration, that recognizes conservation of fossil fuels as more than a "private virtue."

- Keep the budget surplus generated by the Clinton administration handy for unforeseen expenses, instead of pissing it away on tax cuts for the top one percent, and a stupid war.

- Have programs that provide housing for the mentally ill and those made destitute by private catastrophes, instead of directing tax dollars to rebuild mansions following public catastrophes.

I could keep going, if you like, about how smart people would have done things differently leading up to this disaster and the next one. The smart people who have been paying attention for the last few decades have had the same experience as riding in the back of a station wagon driven by stupid, drunk and insane people, Republican and Democrat, fighting for the steering wheel.

We have known what was going wrong, we were just powerless to change it.

[Gomezticator]

I would not have built a city that was 10 feet below sea level and required pumps and levees, plus diverting the MISSISSIPPI RIVER, to exist.

But given it's done, I would have have troops and relief/emergency personnel ready to deploy the MOMENT it was safe weatherwise to enter the region. They knew it was coming.

And I were the prez, I would have mobilized whoever I could the moment I saw that relief efforts weren't getting people help and out of there fast enough. I doubt he just found out last night.

[Jim Demetre]

Conservative thinker and strategist Grover Nordquist has long claimed that he doesn't want to kill government, he just wants to shrink it down so that it can be "drowned in a bathtub."

I wonder if these words have come back to haunt him and his Republican collegues as events in New Orleans fulfill this destiny.

The urban poor are left to drown, the elderly to die and be eaten by rats, and -- most tellingly -- the federal government is nowhere to be found.

Our president, while releasing petroleum from the nation's strategic reserves, managed to further deregulate environmental laws protecting Gulf Coast residents from cancer-causing oil refineries. After that, his primary concern was to send troops to New Orleans to shoot mothers stealing Huggies from the local A&P.

Then there is the larger question of the levees, and the nations crumbling infrastructure. Republicans dream of killing governement and are now watching their dreams come true.

Democrats, who are too frightened to even talk about raising taxes, must share the blame for this.

Jim Demetre

Publisher & Editor
Artdish (www.artdish.com)

[firedemon]

You sit there and say that the Presidents top concern was to send troops in to shoot mothers that are stealing huggies from stores. I have to announce you as idiot of the day.

[Gomezticator]

Our president, while releasing petroleum from the nation's strategic reserves, managed to further deregulate environmental laws protecting Gulf Coast residents from cancer-causing oil refineries. After that, his primary concern was to send troops to new Orleans to shot mothers stealing Huggies from the local A&P.

Then there is the larger question of the levees, and the nations crumbling infrastructure. Republicans dream of killing governement and are now watching their dreams come true.

Democrats, who are too frightened to even talk about raising taxes, must share the blame for this.

Using this tragedy to push an anti-government agenda is just as vile as using this tragedy to push hateful religious beliefs. Get mad at the president and his administration and military for showing neglect in a time of need, but don't tell outright lies to try and pile on. Let the events and the president's neglect speak for itself.

Those incoming troops are not there to take potshots at innocent people, they're there to try and restore order to what's become absolute anarchy. Whatever authorities have been in the region have been shot at by looters and desperate residents, attacked by mobs, and don't have the equipment to keep order. Some local "law enforcement" personnel probably did fire at residents in the anarchy and melee, but it didn't happen in a vacuum. Things are tense and there hasn't been food, electricity, medical facilities or running water for these people in days, and some people have done some fucked up shit in desperation. But don't act like the the National Guard's going on Operation Bayou Genocide.

Whether or not they like what debauchery happens in the French Quarter, Republicans did not dream of New Orleans being destroyed and people dying in the process. This is not some symbolic descent into Neocon Orwellian Society that Bush and friends are taking some perverse joy in. Quit deluding yourself. In fact, many of those denizens vote Republican.

[firedemon]

Perfect point. The fools name was Jim Demetre from fartdish.com

[Jim Demetre]

I am afraid that Bush is the one taking advantage of the tragedy to promote an anti-government agenda. You are fools.

[Gomezticator]

Wanna give us some solid evidence to try and... you know... prove your point?

[firedemon]

Jim you are officially a fucking idiot, this is a national tragedy. You have no point and I'm sure your magazine is garbage. Maybe you need to get laid you dink!

[Citizen Jane]

Shut the fuck up and get online and volunteer for the Red Cross.
Go answer phones at our local Red Cross Office for them or teach someone there older than YOU to BLOG.
Help the Seattle Red Cross update their website. So WE can send volunteers down there to help serve food and water.

1 week or 2 weeks of 100 hours a week, out of your pathetic lives is not going to solve anything - but stop with the rhetorical bullshit.

OR better yet get in your god damn cars and travel to Texas to help out!

[Gomezticator]

Hey Citizen Jane!

Keep in mind some of us have jobs. We can't just up and drive to Texas or Louisiana without losing OUR livelihoods. That would be what many call counterproductive. In fact, the Red Cross is advising volunteers not to report to disaster areas unless they're part of a dedicated organization. Well, I also can't because I don't have a car, but that's kinda aside the point. Jobs and other commitments would hinder our ability to volunteer.

ALSO, people en masse ARE donating their money, and thanks to the internet and the mass of existing volunteers, citizens (such as yourself) have so many avenues to give aid they'll give it whether or not the two of us participate in whatever fashion. The gesture is awesome and appreciated from those who do but don't go acting like it's perfunctory. The volunteers, those who DO have the freedom to donate their time en masse, are out in full force and getting everything they can for the relief effort.

Let us give our however much we can donate, but don't get upset that we take offense to the self-serving motives of a few politically opportunistic jackasses.

[Rain Monkey]

Knock some heads together, Citizen Jane.

Here is a link to wonkette:

http://www.wonkette.com/politics//a-tragedy-by-any-other-name-123456.php

And here is part of the email she printed:

This is from a friend at the EPA:

We're naming it Lake George, 'cause it's his frickin fault. Have you seen all that data about the levee projects' funding being cut over the past three years by the Prez, and the funding transferred to Iraq? The levee, as designed, might not have held back the surge from a direct Class 5 hit, but it certainly would not have crumbled on Monday night from saturation and scour erosion following a glancing blow from a Class 3. The failure was in a spot that had just been rebuilt, not yet compacted, not planted, and not armed (hardened with rock/concrete). The project should have been done two years ago, but the federal gov't diverted 80% of the funding to Iraq. Other areas had settled by a few feet from their design specs, and the money to repair them was diverted to Iraq.

[firedemon]

It's simply amazing how retarded some of you are in your blaming of the President for the levees of New Orleans. The consequences of this disaster have been known throughout city officials for years down there. Officials never ever stressed this problem and that in turn became devastating. So if you want to dog the President as all of you do then continue voicing your frustration at the useless Iraq war, but leave him the fuck out of this one. Nobody expected it to be this bad, and certainly no one expected a large number of people acting like tyrants; raping, shooting at police and fire fighters. This is by far one of the worst weeks in american history.

[Citizen Jane]

You state you have just moved here from New Orleans ... would that be from MIDDLE CLASS NEW ORLEANS? ARE YOU HERE FOR SCHOOL?

1. Please call someone in regards to your GRIEF. You must be in alot of pain to be seeing that beautiful city and areas that you lived devastated. I KNOW I AM and I have only visited a dozen times.
Call Seattle Mental Health, 206-302-2300 http:www.smh.org (http://www.smh.org) or go your campus school services.
2. Please stop calling people retarded for voicing THEIR OPINION.
3. Enough compassion. Grow the fuck up.
4. MOVE BACK, the last thing any of us need here in Seattle is you.

AND AGAIN.....
5. HAVE YOU CALLED YOUR LOCAL RED CROSS OFFICE AND OFFERED YOUR SERVICES?
Address: American Red Cross
ARC Serving King & Kitsap Counties
1900 25th Ave S
Seattle, WA 98144-4708
E-mail: info@seattleredcross.org
Phone: 206-323-2345
Fax: 206-325-8211
Web site: http://www.seattleredcross.org

HAVE ANY OF YOU ?????????

P.S. This CURRENT Bush Administration IS responsible for cutting over 80% of the funding in 2002 for the changes that were to happen to the levee. Courtesy of my local PBS station this evening on NOW with David Brancaccio.
http://www.pbs.org/now/

[Sklampton]

firedemon,

people acting like "tyrants" is what happens when a dense, urban area is left to its own devices with no support, no resources, in a state of complete devastation. anyone who knows anything about psychology, history, sociology, or has a bit of common sense DID know this and would have expected it.

in fact, every disaster scenario our emergency management system plans for specifically accounts for looting, rioting, marauding gangs of armed thugs, etc. this is what happens when there is a breakdown of the social order. this is not new and not unique.

it's silly to blame bush for the breach in the levees, even though he and his policies do bear responsibility for massively cutting funding for projects aimed at preventing such a thing. there is no way to say, however, that even if the funding had been in place the levees would have held. this was a massive storm, and you can't prevent some things.

what is not silly is to blame him and his administration for their absolutely appalling response to the situation.

since 9/11, our government has spent countless billions supposedly preparing for exactly this kind of disaster, and the response was nearly a week late. it was as if there was no plan in place at all, like they were hastily working out just what to do. it literally seemed that NOTHING was done for the first 3 days. the man was playing guitar in san diego on tuesday.

this exact scenario was predicted and should have been planned for. unlike a terrorist attack, we knew this storm was coming. we watched it bear down on new orleans and heard the predictions of catastrophe. why wasn't the relief effort standing by, ready to go in immediately after the storm paassed? why weren't the airlines mobilized to evacuate those who had no transportation of their own BEFORE the storm hit, instead of 5 days later?

this country has nearly unlimited resources - how we have dealt with this tragedy is profoundly shameful.

[Lucius Bolivar]

It's simply amazing how retarded some of you are in your blaming of the President for the levees of New Orleans. The consequences of this disaster have been known throughout city officials for years down there. Officials never ever stressed this problem and that in turn became devastating. So if you want to dog the President as all of you do then continue voicing your frustration at the useless Iraq war, but leave him the fuck out of this one. Nobody expected it to be this bad, and certainly no one expected a large number of people acting like tyrants; raping, shooting at police and fire fighters. This is by far one of the worst weeks in american history.

Well what about all the federal funding for levee maintenance being severely cut back? How do you explain that? What about the Louisiana national guard troops and vehicles being deployed overseas? You are severely mistaken if you do not understand that the current administration is not partially to blame for causing this situation to be far worse than it should have been.

Too bad that the ball was dropped by the federal government, allowing such an environment to be created where thugs could run free. I fully expect that such stories will be used as excuses for government failure.

I am absolutely disgusted to see the president smirking and making wisecracks yesterday. There is no excuse for that kind of behavior, not while taxpayer bodies are lying in the streets.

And it is pretty obvious that the government response would be different if most of the victims had been white.

You sit there and say that the Presidents top concern was to send troops in to shoot mothers that are stealing huggies from stores. I have to announce you as idiot of the day.

It seemed an awful big concern for the president that there may be some looting. Who really gives a crap if there was some looting? Why would protecting the contents of a Wal-Mart even matter right now, when there are much bigger problems? Am I supposed to accept that the federal and state government's concern for some privately owned goods was worth diverting any attention away from saving people from drowning and starvation?

It doesn't take a genius to realize that the whole focusing on worrying about looting is obviously just pathetic excuses for not getting the job done. The worry about looting is inconsequential to the problem of people being trapped in hospitals.

If the president is flying around in his helicopter fleet, maybe he could drop by one of the hospitals in down town New Orleans and pick up some of the people who are on manual life-support. Nope, he'd prefer to do photo ops.

This has been a sickening, disgusting, and inexcusable response from our government. (http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001054151)

Don't even bother trying to defend Mr. Bush. He deserves everything anyone has said about him. (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/02/opinion/02krugman.html?pagewanted=print)

Is Bush to Blame for New Orleans Flooding? (http://factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=344)

[Gomezticator]

Getting lost amidst the anger and finger pointing that erupted here overnight is Sklampton's excellent point. Even if they had improved the levees, such levees are not equipped to handle anything beyond a Category Three hurricane, and even after weakening, Katrina was a category four. Katrina and the resulting storm surge would have ripped holes in the levees regardless.

Plus, while Bush did cut the funding necessary, that couldn't have been more than four years ago. New or improved levees and any other flood protection projects would not have been completed in four years. That is a massive engineering project. And again, they wouldn't have stopped what ended up happening. This is a city that is TEN FEET BELOW SEA LEVEL. Geologically, the land New Orleans is on shouldn't even exist. That NO exists in the first place is a miracle of civil engineering. It was only a matter of time before this happened.

Only one finger really needs to be pointed. The fault lies with the government for not rushing to the scene of the disaster and having prepared and deploying every resource they could to help these people immediately. Most aid efforts were blocked from the city for 3-4 days by police and military. You didn't see this level of neglect with Hurricane Ivan.

No, this is not the so much product of a government conspiracy or even a cut of funding, but simply the product of profound neglect by our federal government, led by GWB. The fact is that Bush spent four days fiddling while New Orleans drowned.

The relief aid has arrived and much, much more is coming. Once these disaster victims are out of harm's way and taken care of, someone needs to point a finger in the Fed's face and ask why they were so horribly unprepared to help these victims.

[firedemon]

You can continue to point the finger at George Bush and his administration it really doesn't matter. Why? Because your weak little voice is not heard, just like when all of you were protesting in Capitol Hill and holding John Kerry signs. Who won? Not the Massachusettes fuck face, not Ted Kennedys fat ass. It was George Bush. And right now he's got a porterhouse steak and a Heineken shoes kicked off with the air conditioner on 70. Just like you. Oh shit... I gotta go there's a football game on. Chow

Firedemon

[SheSearch]

There are a number of aspects in the aftermath of Katrina that require comment. Being prepared is certainly an issue. The city of New Orleans’ website has detailed information on how to prepare, a detailed list of items to have in place in case of a category 4 hurricane and what to do if flooding is a risk. How many people who fall within New Orleans underclass has T mobile access to the web and has this important information stored on their blackberry or iPod? Whether you want to accept it or not, the poor were trapped long before Katrina.

New Orleans poor community is not new news. In fact a commission was established on Aug. 24 to attack the issue of poverty in the crescent city.

The bottom line is that white folks do not want to accept the reality that exists in this country - poverty and race are synonymous in America and something you really do not care about. Even greater than the make up of the underclass is the predominant perception of the poor. The embedded Meta message is that when white people describe the poor it is done with disgust and their circumstance is their fault and a reflection of character. This viewpoint which was represented by a small percentage 20 years ago is now the accepted perspective amongst the young and affluent.

Granted, the debate on poverty could consume the next 10 years, but you have to ask yourself why the poor is so black? Conservatives justify their ignorance by arguing that "if Dick Parsons can lead AOL why can't black people get up off their ass and be an executive at Microsoft like me and the one black guy in the cube next to me?

The reality is that our economy is not structured to accept the masses of black into the middle and upper middle class. White folks need black people to be poor just like the economy needs a certain percentage to be unemployed.

The media must accept responsibility for the perception it created over the course of the last week. Feeding the nation repetitive images of looters and inarticulate blacks reinforces your prejudices and builds ratings. Focusing on looting only exacerbated the delay. Over emphasizing snipers without explanation is insult to injury. What the media neglected to report was that in the early hours after the storm whites were being evacuated first much like the scene from "Hotel Rowanda" and snipers were telling rescuers to "help them or else".

Of course all white people are not complete racists, but most have a difficult time letting go of their entitlement view of the world. Whether you want to peel the onion on this one or not, most whites hold the view that they are supposed to be affluent and most black are not. The world order as you know it keeps black people poor. Beyond your occasional intellectual exercise over beers, poverty and race and the inequities in America is something that lets you sleep at night. On the other hand, what would you do if your current community changed over night and most of your neighbors were middleclass blacks? Would you organize a progressive dinner or would you run to find another community that reinforced your view of an all white world with coffee shops, cocktail parties and stock options?

Since I know white people are murderers and rapists too and I head ya'll like to do stuff to animals in this part of the world, I'd like to see what would happen if Seattle was cut off from the rest of the world and 20,000 white people representing all classes including registered and non-registered sex offenders and criminals were forced into a closed area with no authority rule and where there was no food or water for 5 days in complete unsanitary conditions and see what kind of mayhem would ensure. First of all, Bush would not allow it to happen by no uncertain terms in the first place. Second of all, he would have gotten countless direct personal phone calls from your parents including Steve Ballmer saying "Do something now". Bush and Chaney would never allow a group of white people to be treated like those mostly black people were treated in New Orleans. Intentions mean nothing when the results paint a very differnt picture.

As much as white folks want the world to forget, your ancestors had the capacity to pack 300 black people into slave ships for 3 month voyages over a 400 year period where captive blacks were chained and forced to live amongst their own shit and vomit and be raped at whim. Hey if you could do it for 400 years, what difference does 5 days make..........

The simple truth is that America’s Achilles heel is now exposed - Homeland security should be renamed to Whiteland security. We've just telegraphed to the world that the fastest way to disable American society is not to target financial centers in major markets (they all have server redundancy anyway) but to target America’s predominantly and often poor and yes black communities. In doing so we now know the federal government's response will be slow if at all.

Call me what you want. It is hard to argue this point as your president has already told the world that black people "in this part of the world" don't matter.

[Jim Demetre]

This is a very good discussion of the problem in New Orleans, which about race, economic disparity and the role of government.

I also want to thank those of you like Jane who have encouraged us to donate to the Red Cross or other organizations.

There will be hard times ahead for many, many people.

[firedemon]

Now that's a good boy. You actually hit the bullseye, maybe I check out your magazine I'll read it when im taking a shit.

[Lucius Bolivar]

Too bad Terry Schaivo wasn't in one of those hospitals. You bet GWB would have stayed up all night acting as commander in chief and getting boots on the ground and choppers in the air. All he has to do is make the FREAKING PHONE CALLS. He IS the commander-in-chief - the head of the military.

He could have had troops there within hours. The responsibility for the rescue failure falls on his shoulders. This crap about dangerous thugs being an excuse not to go in - is just a pathetic excuse. And thugs were not firing off weapons until long after the National Guard guard should have already arrived.

Condy Rice was out buying shoes and going to see a musical yesterday? That's just sick, man. Sick.

IF the US Army Corps of Engineers knew this was an unavoidable scenario, then Bush is lying again when he said nobody forsaw this. And it is sick to see the pathetic slug head of FEMA attempting to blame the victims. That wretched worm should already have been relieved of duty.

Kanye West was right. George Bush doesn't care about black people. There's no possible excuse that would justify his behavior.

[Liddle_skediddle]

No homes or work for refugees? Gas shortage?
Build electric automobile plants with on-site living communities (yes, and I mean housing projects) that are equipped with learning centers (for those who re w/o a highschool education) and a childcare facility in Texas to give these people a job, a home, and put an end to the gas crisis all at the same time!

It's not like Texas doesn't have the space and it's not like we don't need it.

[Liddle_skediddle]

If the Louisiana state government had it's sh** together, they'd have avoided the problem of a large impoverished black community altogether a long time ago. The problem is is that the people who couldn't escape is because they are poor and thus don't have the resources to save their asses come hell or high water (pun definitely intended). The reason they are poor to begin with, is because their state, along with the current administration, never got it's shit together enough to make sure it's people get an education and the skills to get gainful employment OTHER THAN working at Popeye's or Wafflehouse.
We are talking about 2nd and 3rd generations of slaves here!
If those states had done what mine did for all the black teen mothers and former gang members here in the nineties (put them through school, landed them jobs, i.e. gave them REAL assistance and not put them on the welfare-crutch) then those people might have had it together enough to get out of there like all the white people did with their vehicles and their savings accounts.

[firedemon]

There is nothing I have to say on top of that, you are absolutely right. If anyone even tries to argue with you it will just prove their ignorance.

[firedemon]

Don't you think that the local and state government should have had transportation for people who couldn't get out before the storm hit. Wasn't it a mandatory evacuation? Obviously not. Everyone knew a week in advance that this storm had a very good chance of hitting New Orleans. The blame is pointing dead on at mayor Ray Nagin, Gov. Katheleen Blanco, and the piss poor education system of Louisiana. Have a great day Seattle.

fire demon

[Citizen Jane]

Governer Blanco requested/asked for 5 million for ground transportation.

Good day to you firedemon. Have you packed up to go "home" yet?

What is your GPA - since you are from there - would this be your EXCUSE for your piss poor education ? Isn't that interesting?

Have you called the Red Cross yet to volunteer some of your time?

[Lucius Bolivar]

“Based on the predictions we have received from the National Weather Service and other sources, I have determined that this incident will be of such severity and magnitude that effective response will be beyond the capabilities of the State and the affected local governments and that supplementary Federal assistance will be necessary”.

- Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco, in disaster relief request letter to the President (http://gov.louisiana.gov/Disaster%20Relief%20Request.pdf) on August 28th

[waxfanatic]

The reason N.O. was such a disaster wasnt because of Bush or the ineptitude of the FEMA director. It was because the local authorities didnt put the following into action.

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:6CwVGOyL-lYJ:www.cityofno.com/SystemModules/PrintPage.aspx%3Fportal%3D46%26tabid%3D26+City+of+ New+Orleans+Comprehensive+Emergency+Management+Pla n&hl=en


And to the person who printed the governor’s request for assistance. You're either mistaken or lying. Bush asked her to make the proper declarations in order to federalize the emergency operation and she replied that she needed 24 hours to think about it. When this all shakes out I’ll be surprised if the governor isn’t impeached.

A year ago Ivan approached the coast of Louisiana. An evacuation of N.O. was ordered. Fortunately Ivan missed. Because one of the things the city of N.O. learned from that evac. was that thousands of its poorest citizens couldn't leave unless given assistance. That was a year ago. They did nothing and many of those same people died.

And to you mouth breathers afflicted with Bush derangement syndrome. If you had an ounce of shame. You'd be embarrassed to see what kind of pathetic imbeciles you look like by ignoring the obvious local and state culpability in order to pin it all on Bush.

M

[Lucius Bolivar]

And to the person who printed the governor’s request for assistance. You're either mistaken or lying.

No, I think you will find that the federal government is lying to cover their ass. (http://www.newschannel6.tv/news/default.asp?mode=shownews&id=8601) I know that it may be hard to accept, but they do that kind of thing all the time, which isn't hard to notice if you are paying attention.

I'm not saying that local authorities could not have been better prepared, but that does not absolve FEMA or the White House of criminal negligence. There is no disputing that the Louisiana Governor requested Federal assistance well before the storm hit. Sadly, that assistance was not given and thousands of taxpaying American citizens are now dead because of this failure. That is a fact.

Also, we're not just talking about Louisiana and New Orleans here, but other states and cities as well. I'm not sure what the mayors of other cities did, or the other state governors, but I suspect we will all get to find out in the weeks and months ahead.

August 26, 2005 "Gov. Blanco Issues State of Emergency in Preparation for Hurricane Katrina" (http://www.klfy.com/Global/story.asp?S=3771703)

August 26, 2005 "Louisiana Governor Declares Hurricane Katrina State of Emergency" (http://www.bayoubuzz.com/articles.aspx?aid=4836)

August 27, 2005 "Gov. Kathleen Blanco declared a state of emergency late Friday" (http://www.nola.com/news/t-p/frontpage/index.ssf?/base/news-4/1125123931221200.xml)

August 27, 2005 "Louisiana Asks President Bush To Declare Katrina Emergency" (http://www.bayoubuzz.com/articles.aspx?aid=4843)

There's tons more similar articles available if you do a search by date at news.google.com (http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d&q=blanco+katrina+%22state+of+emergency%22&sa=N&start=1000).

[chops]

here's a helpful timeline (http://www.thinkprogress.org/katrina-timeline).

[firedemon]

Ms. Jane my home is now Seattle and my G.P.A. was god awful but it doesn't really matter cuz I play guitar and bang whores. I am the fire demon.

[firedemon]

of Louisiana did not ask for troops until Wednesday. Look it up, write it down, and tell your friends. She and mayor Ray Nagin were the major screw-ups in this disaster.

[Lucius Bolivar]

Now you are just being silly. The facts are plain for all to see, the feds dropped the ball.

[firedemon]

the ball was dropped initially by the local and state government by not getting people out before the storm hit. They could have used RTA(regional transit authority) to get everyone out. I couldn't tell you how many public transportaion buses N.O. has or had, then they could have used Amtrak and Greyhound and even yellow school buses to get out. What they were hoping for was another close call like Ivan but it didn't happen. Blaming the federal government is the obvious choice for Bush haters and I want you to continue doing this so your energy drains out of your hot angry heads and the rest of us can laugh once again. Remember how pissed you were when Kerry lost? Does this feel like deja vu? Feels like comedy to me. Oh yeah and Kayne West is in for an ass whippin'.

[Lucius Bolivar]

It’s not a question of are they to blame, that answer is obvious to most people, including a whole slew of Republican elected officials.

In the light of such overwhelming obvious failure, I suppose there’s always gonna be some clown trying to defend this behavior, as sure as some clown is going to loot a Wal-Mart for a TV they’ve no place to plug in. This is serious business here, it’s not some football game where somebody’s team wins or loses. We’re talking about deep failures of government that have huge implications in regard to the long term or even short term stability of this country. If we can’t trust them with this basic job, how are we supposed to trust them in any other matters?

We do know that the President did nothing after being fully warned of the danger of the approaching storm. He did nothing. There’s nothing about the circumstances from preventing him from taking care of business. This guy is the commander-in-chief of the military. He can order FEMA and Homeland Security to do whatever he wants.

Maybe he thought the mayor of one city would take care of it for him. Certainly the correct action to take was not to wait and see. Maybe if the guy hadn’t been on vacation, he could have been paying attention, and if state and local government were failing, then something could be done about it.

Now there are tens of thousands dead and still dying. FEMA is still bungling this as we speak, offers for foreign assistance have not even been replied to. My god you’d think they wanted this to be as bad as possible.

It’s obvious now that the federal government can’t even act when a natural disaster strikes the continental US. This just shows up how all that blabbering and expenditure over Homeland Security was all hot air for political gain, with no substance. This country is swiftly becoming a broke, defenseless sitting duck because of the incompetence of the persons supposedly in charge.

I don’t understand the bizarre psychological conditions are that make people talk as if they believe George W. Bush was somehow their personal friend or butt-buddy, the dude would just as soon drop somebody’s entire family into a sewer to drown.

firedemon, I think it’s time for you to step up and admit that you are wrong on this issue. There’s no shame, in fact it is a noble act to admit when one is wrong. Give us the kind of responsible behavior that you’d never get from the sniveling worm in the White House.

[firedemon]

Which republican official is blaming Bush? Which rebulican official is siding with anything you are speaking of. No one. What are you talking about? I didn't vote for Bush or Kerry, and if Kerry was the President I'd be defending him as well. I am far to informed to choose a republican/democratic side on a national and natural disaster. I do however laugh everytime liberals get angry for the wrong reasons. I think the war in Iraq is useless even though I was very much entertained at the inital bombing. Also Bush and his paving the forest policy is fucking horrible, but this is by far a failure by the local and state government of Louisiana. And it is more then obvious that you will always critisize Bush on his every decision. So you go right ahead and keep whining but remember this, the Fire Demon calls it as he sees it then he speaks it and he always comes out on top. Take care butt-buddy

[Lucius Bolivar]

Which republican official is blaming Bush? Which rebulican official is siding with anything you are speaking of. No one.

Well pick up a newspaper or something:

Republicans blast response to Katrina (http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/nation/story/C30EAE33DD37D242862570750016314E?OpenDocument)

GOP lawmakers were unhappy with their administration's performance. (http://pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/opinion/columnists/guests/s_371731.html)

Much anger from Democrats and Republicans alike has been directed at Bush for a slow federal response to a catastrophe that may have killed thousands in New Orleans and along the Gulf coast. (http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N0662236.htm)

Republicans and Democrats have assailed the Federal Emergency Management Agency (http://www.shreveporttimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050906/NEWS/50906005)

A Republican who is to head a separate Senate investigation of the crisis said on Tuesday that the Government's response was "woefully inadequate" and raised doubts about the country's ability to cope with a terrorist attack. (http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/attacks-on-bush-continue-to-grow/2005/09/07/1125772584569.html)

Even members of President Bush's Republican Party have serious questions, considering the billions of dollars the U.S. has devoted to emergency preparedness since 9/11. (http://www.voanews.com/english/2005-09-07-voa35.cfm)

Naturally the White House would like to deflect blame by calling any criticism some sort of liberal or partisan attack. It's the same line of bull they use to try and deflect any criticism, but it just won't hold up in this case, because there are tens of thousands of human corpses rotting in our back yard and most people just cannot overlook this.

What are you talking about? I didn't vote for Bush or Kerry, and if Kerry was the President I'd be defending him as well. I am far to informed to choose a republican/democratic side on a national and natural disaster. I do however laugh everytime liberals get angry for the wrong reasons.

You did spew this idiocy:

Blaming the federal government is the obvious choice for Bush haters and I want you to continue doing this so your energy drains out of your hot angry heads and the rest of us can laugh once again. Remember how pissed you were when Kerry lost?

Which is quite presumptious and I am afraid your assumptions are pretty shortsighted.

I think the war in Iraq is useless even though I was very much entertained at the inital bombing.

Well I suppose if you like to witness a civilian population being killed by bombs that you have paid for.

And it is more then obvious that you will always critisize Bush on his every decision.

Hey I didn't ask him to be a complete idiot, that's all his doing. If he does something that is unworthy of criticism, I will shut up. It has yet to happen.

So you go right ahead and keep whining but remember this, the Fire Demon calls it as he sees it then he speaks it and he always comes out on top. Take care butt-buddy

Uh, well considering you got repeatedly schooled with the facts, I'd say that the coming out on top part is not working out for you.

[firedemon]

were simply overwhemled from the get go by seeing all the broke, hot, and hungry people in the streets. It was the first reaction to blame the feds. Now that the situation is much clearer that blame once again falls on the local and state government.

[Lucius Bolivar]

wishful thinking on your part

[Tuesday's child]

Must the blame be either federal or state/local? I'd say there's a long list of ingredients to that recipe for disaster we've all witnessed.

firedemon, I know you don't want to admit that you're licked, but the feds are clearly in the wrong. And they're floundering for excuses. You may be right that state & local officials are wrong as well, but give up on trying to protect GWB. He certainly doesn't give a shit about you.

[brentandrews]

I have stayed at the Pontchartrain Hotel, the Hotel St. Charles and others, but for my money the Royal Sonesta on Bourbon is the best hotel in New Orleans. It's not often I get to go to NOLA anymore. I've been robbed there, twice. The first time he didn't get anything; there was nothing to get. The second time she got $400, or close to it. I was asleep on the stairs down by the river when she slipped my wallet from my pocket. She was a punk. We'd been together all day walking the Quarter and drinking. We found each other that morning in a group of punks at Jackson Square and came together like magnets. We started looking for a place to f*ck. She had no home - I had lost my car somewhere in the Quarter - there was nowhere to f*ck. We drank Blackened Voodoo Beer and Cuervo, on me. She wasn't affected much, but I was. We wandered and drank. She smelled rank - like a wet bag of onions and fish. That turned me on. Her smell mixed with the crabcakes and jumbalaya and music drifting around the quarter like smoke. I can still remember it. It smelled like a garbage dump - and love.

At last, as always, the booze got the better of me. We were in a bar on Decatur Street. It was late, and I felt sick. "Let's go down to the river," she said. "It's cool down there." And indeed it was. Down by the river I put my head in her lap and slept. Vaguely, I awoke and felt her hands in my pockets. I thought she was feeling me up. That was fine, though I couldn't respond. I let her have a feel and went back to sleep.

I awoke with my head on concrete, the wide brown river drifting by, the late-night sounds of the Quarter - of music and laughter and car horns - seeming very far away from my dark place by the river. I was alarmed to notice a lot of people around, not punks but poor black people. They were making themselves comfortable for the night. The girl was gone. Collecting myself I found that my wallet was gone, too.

I stumbled back to Decatur Street - Louie B. Stumblin, I was, here on a pleasure excursion. I found the bar where we had been before but there was no sign of the girl. I stuck around a while just in case, but she never came. I thought, maybe she just went to eat, and she will find me again, but that was wishful thinking.

She didn't love me. She robbed me. Still I hope she got out before the flood. She was beautiful. She smelled of onions and fish. We spent the day together drinking Blackened Voodoo Beer and chasing it with Cuervo, and that part was good, at least.

Now, my wife is reluctant to go with me to New Orleans, with good reason. Last year I talked her into going only because we were evacuated from Gulf Shores, Ala., as Hurricane Ivan approached. We evacuated to New Orleans, the French Quarter, the Royal Sonesta at Bourbon and Royal streets. We sat on the balcony over Bourbon for a long night of talking and reflecting and watching. I was sober; Ginny was not. It's best that way. It was a good night, the best night, and then in the morning we were evacuated from New Orleans too as Ivan threatened the city. We stopped at Cafe du Monde on the way out of town. We shared the best coffee and beignets, watching the light foot-traffic around Jackson Square. Then we left - reluctantly. I'll be back, I thought.

And I will get back to New Orleans, though I don't know when.

[brentandrews]

Rather than rush in after the floodwaters get pumped out and set to rebuilding, we ought to think this through. (http://www.missoulian.com/articles/2005/09/14/opinion/opinion4.txt)

[Gomezticator]

Because the citizens of Missoula, MT know what's best for the Gulf Coast :P

Okay, seriously they bring up a good point, but I think advocates of scrapping New Orleans are half right: parts of New Orleans, including the famed French Quarter and Bourbon Street, escaped serious damage and flooding. The parts of NOLA that remain intact should remain and people should be allowed to return. It won't be the metropolis it once was, but that's fine. Build along the north and western edges of the city if you want to expand what's left, but the parts that were flooded and destroyed need to be cleaned up, tore down and left to Mother Nature. If it's below sea level, let the water have it.

[Rain Monkey]

Conservatives oppose building codes and zoning. People should be free to build what they want where they want and let the buyer beware.

Conservatives agree that it is the proper role of the federal government to bail out businesses and home owners, but people who were homeless before the flood shall remain homeless and tough luck buddy. Get a job.

Conservatives now want to turn this disaster into a massive social engineering project, moving the poor and their $2000.00 into republican districts until the money is spent and all the bottom rung jobs are filled. And then the homeless will join the national seasonal migrants, traveling the urban archipelago circuit.

Conservatives want to rebuild New Orleans, on their terms. Isn't it funny that when people in the big cities talk about how the National Parks and National Forests should be managed, people in Montana get all agitated about the "city liberals" meddling in "their" lands?

[Gomezticator]

So you're saying we should completely rebuild the below-sea-level ghettohood that existed before the hurricane, just to stick it to the conservatives? So what if they drown in the next hurricane, as long as we don't let the 'conservatives' have their way, right?

Keep in mind, many of those citizens have left and likely won't return, with their homes completely destroyed and flooded (many with no insurance). The 'social engineering' isn't exactly necessary because thousands of displaced citizens decided to live elsewhere after what happened to them. Baton Rouge and Houston have taken in many of those displaced citizens.

Conservatives, their personal opinions of the impoverished and minorities aside, honestly don't care any more or less than liberals or anyone else how New Orleans is rebuilt. The justification for not rebuilding the flooded areas is common sense: it is below sea level and like a sandcastle, if you build it again, another hurricane will likely destroy and drown it again. And as others have stated, it's not like the affected areas were an urban paradise anyway.

[firedemon]

I finally can agree with Gometizer!

[Gomezticator]

Yes! Progress!

[Rain Monkey]

The Firedemon was one of my favorite right-wing psychos. Claimed to be from New Orleans. Posts rarely now, but keeps coming back.

Update on New Orleans: Still not made whole. FEMA trailers have gassed the survivors with formaldehyde. Bush still doesn't care about black people. (Unless you are black and fawn over Bush, like his buddy Juan Williams.)

[Ballard Pimp]

The Firedemon was one of my favorite right-wing psychos. Claimed to be from New Orleans. Posts rarely now, but keeps coming back.



I dunno, RM. His last post was June 22, 2007, more than a year ago.

[Rain Monkey]

Too bad Terry Schaivo wasn't in one of those hospitals. You bet GWB would have stayed up all night acting as commander in chief and getting boots on the ground and choppers in the air. All he has to do is make the FREAKING PHONE CALLS. He IS the commander-in-chief - the head of the military.

He could have had troops there within hours. The responsibility for the rescue failure falls on his shoulders. This crap about dangerous thugs being an excuse not to go in - is just a pathetic excuse. And thugs were not firing off weapons until long after the National Guard guard should have already arrived.

Condy Rice was out buying shoes and going to see a musical yesterday? That's just sick, man. Sick.

IF the US Army Corps of Engineers knew this was an unavoidable scenario, then Bush is lying again when he said nobody forsaw this. And it is sick to see the pathetic slug head of FEMA attempting to blame the victims. That wretched worm should already have been relieved of duty.

Kanye West was right. George Bush doesn't care about black people. There's no possible excuse that would justify his behavior.

Three years ago this weekend the Phorum Phrends were doing our part, posting at our keyboards late into the night; providing critical analysis of world events.

With due concern for the good people of the gulf states, let's hope that this years hurricane season reminds the voters what a laissez faire government response to a humanitarian crisis looked like, and why they should work hard to alter or abolish that form of government.

[freikja]

With due concern for the good people of the gulf states, let's hope that this years hurricane season reminds the voters what a laissez faire government response to a humanitarian crisis looked like, and why they should work hard to alter or abolish that form of government.

l have family in Alabama and Louisiana. l just hope this last two months of government doesn't do the same goddamn thing they did last time. As in, nothing.

[Ballard Pimp]

l have family in Alabama and Louisiana. l just hope this last two months of government doesn't do the same goddamn thing they did last time. As in, nothing.

Nope, freikja, this time they'll do it all right. Last time they drowned and/or drove away enough Democratic voters to make the state safely Republican, so this time they will protect them as are left.

[Shattered Roses]

With due concern for the good people of the gulf states, let's hope that this years hurricane season reminds the voters what a laissez faire government response to a humanitarian crisis looked like, and why they should work hard to alter or abolish that form of government.

As much as I care about those who are about to die because they refuse to evacuate, it is not the government's duty to help its people.

The only things a government should provide its people is order and protection from invasion.

NOTHING ELSE.

Whenever a government provides a service (ie education, fire dept, FEMA) it renders its people indebted to it. Then, the government can ask for part of your paycheck because you owe it to them.

We would not owe a government who provided only order and protection anything. The time it would take citizens to work out these problems in a governmental form would be enough.

So stop asking the government for welfare, social security, and disaster relief. A government should not be equipped to do such things. It should be civillian organizations doing it.

[Melle]

As much as I care about those who are about to die because they refuse to evacuate, it is not the government's duty to help its people.

Oh boy. Libertarianoid jerkoff session.

The only things a government should provide its people is order and protection from invasion.

NOTHING ELSE.

On what grounds do you assert this?

Whenever a government provides a service (ie education, fire dept, FEMA) it renders its people indebted to it.

Whenever a private for-profit company provides a service, it renders the people indebted to it, too. The difference is, a democratic government is accountable to us and a for-profit company is accountable to no one but its shareholders. The profit motive is currently killing the entire world, and you want to hand over everything we have left.

Then, the government can ask for part of your paycheck because you owe it to them.

Ah yes, your paycheck ... Let me state the very simplest example in the very simplest terms ... Your paycheck, drawn on a bank that can only exist for 10 minutes because the government provides law enforcement and keeps it from being knocked over. Yeah, you don't owe 'em ANYTHING!

We would not owe a government who provided only order and protection anything. The time it would take citizens to work out these problems in a governmental form would be enough.

Say WHAT? How is a government (which---news flash!---also consists of citizens) supposed to function without money? How are the people acting as soldiers, judges, policemen, etc. (or whatever positions you feel comprise justifiable gov't activity) supposed to eat?

So stop asking the government for welfare, social security, and disaster relief. A government should not be equipped to do such things. It should be civillian organizations doing it.

How 'bout, we have a government that's at bottom a civilian organization?

What you call "civilian organizations" boils down in our day & age, every time, to huge mega-corporations. And entrusting them to do traditionally governemtal jobs has been the great disaster of our day & age, and it only gets worse every day. You're out of your mind.

[Shattered Roses]

Ah yes, your paycheck ... Let me state the very simplest example in the very simplest terms ... Your paycheck, drawn on a bank that can only exist for 10 minutes because the government provides law enforcement and keeps it from being knocked over. Yeah, you don't owe 'em ANYTHING!
.

No, we do. Because we live in a welfare state, I owe taxes.

I'm saying it should never come to the point where I owe my government.

If you have such a huge problem with the way shareholders run things, become a shareholder. I'm one of SIRIUS XM. Not a bad company.

Governments have the power to literally kill you. Corporations don't. Who do I want to give control of my life to, the ones who enforce with the possibility of death or the ones who enforce with overage charges?

I fear government that isn't transparent. As a shareholder, I am informed whenever Mel, the CEO, wipes his fucking ass. As a citizen, I am informed very rarely about things because it's a "security risk" to let the people who voted for you know what you are doing. My corporations aren't doing anything that could get me killed. My government is rapidly moving into a power play with nations that could drag us into world war and stick my fat ass in camo and on the front lines where I would be prompty dead.

[Melle]

No, we do. Because we live in a welfare state, I owe taxes.

I'm saying it should never come to the point where I owe my government.

Please. If, at your own minimum, the government only provided order, you'd still owe them for that. If you don't want to owe them for anything, go off and live in the hills as a hunter-gatherer.

If you have such a huge problem with the way shareholders run things, become a shareholder. I'm one of SIRIUS XM. Not a bad company.

Yeah, OK, I'll buy as many shares as I can afford of Exxon & then I'll tell them exactly what to do about all the oil they've spilled or stolen. Thanks for the tip!

Even if being a small shareholder gave you any say in a company's activities---which it doesn't---the idea of owning stock in each of the thousands of corporations whose actions affect our daily lives, and by means of your tiny percentage helping to run them, is utterly ludicrous.

Governments have the power to literally kill you. Corporations don't. Who do I want to give control of my life to, the ones who enforce with the possibility of death or the ones who enforce with overage charges?

Some over-simple analysis there!

Plenty of corporations have the power to kill me, and you, and just about as many people as they want. You don't think Lockheed, Honeywell, or Colt have that power? Or Blackwater, who's killing thousands of Iraqis as we speak (on behalf of Exxon and Haliburton and all those wonderful companies who would never dream of any coercion more aggressive than an "overage charge")?

Of course those corporations, and many others, have the power to kill me. What they don't have is the right---a very different thing. The government's right to kill is controversial and broadly contested, but as it stands, the government only claims that right if I behave in a certain way. Of course it can sidestep the issue of right and simply kill people on the sly---but then, so can (and do) many private parties (including corporations). If I don't pay my taxes, the gov't doesn't have the right to kill me. It will penalize me for it eventually. (But it will also do this on AT&T's behalf if I don't pay my phone bill. If you opt to be "controlled" by corporations instead of government, they'll just level all the force of government at you anyway---cheaper for them to let taxpayers foot the bill.)

I fear government that isn't transparent. As a shareholder, I am informed whenever Mel, the CEO, wipes his fucking ass.

Oh yeah, kind of like how all those Enron employees who knew, via their stock options, exactly what Jeff Skilling was doing. Kinda like that, huh?

As a citizen, I am informed very rarely about things because it's a "security risk" to let the people who voted for you know what you are doing.

You have access to far more information on government activities, of all kinds, than corporate activities.

My corporations aren't doing anything that could get me killed.

Oh (http://www.accidentreconstruction.com/news/aug04/081904a.asp), no (http://www.endgame.org/carbide-history.html), of (http://www.inmotionmagazine.com/ra03/madcow1.html) course (http://www.primetimecrime.com/Recent/Greed%20Corruption/Corporate%20scandals.htm) not (http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0619-02.htm)!

My government is rapidly moving into a power play with nations that could drag us into world war and stick my fat ass in camo and on the front lines where I would be prompty dead.

Your government is doing all that on behalf of corporate interests! Christ on a fucking crutch, are you blind?

[Ballard Pimp]

Governments have the power to literally kill you. Corporations don't. Who do I want to give control of my life to, the ones who enforce with the possibility of death or the ones who enforce with overage charges?



You're kidding, right?

Ten years ago a stockholder of Southern Corp., the country's most widely held electric utility stock, brought a motion at the annual meeting to provide funds for a private investigation of the unsolved murder of an outside director of the board of directors. He had been shot while driving to meet with a reporter to turn over evidence he alleged showed a pattern of management payoffs to Alabama and Georgia politicians. The motion was voted down, with all the surviving directors voting their shares against.